4 ms·

How is Apple giving 100MM to "invest in Black and Brown companies" discriminating against anyone?

nitsky 6y ago
Publicly stating that investments from a fund will only be given to particular racial groups likely meets most people’s definition of “discrimination on the basis of race”.
- ziaddotcom 6y ago
  Go ahead and say which racial groups that would be against, particularly relative to Apple's total investments in a given year.
  - nitsky 6y ago
    These are the only investments I’m aware of that apple makes that are targeted at particular racial groups. The others are available without racial discrimination. While the racial composition of the recipients may not be in proportion with each race’s representation in the general population, I do not believe that makes them “racist”. In my view, “racism” is when race is made an explicit criterion in decision making, as apple is demonstrating here.
    - ziaddotcom 6y ago
      Are reservations for Native Americans racism by your definition then, since they are explicitly for Native Americans?
      - nitsky 6y ago
        No, reservations are not given on the basis of race, they are part of peace treaties negotiated between "countries" such as "the cherokee nation", "the navajo nation", etc. They are no more racist than treaties signed with other nations whose population is mostly one particular race. See wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        why doesn't your definition of racism also have parity with Wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
        nitsky 6y ago
        From the article: > According to dictionaries, the word is commonly used to describe prejudice and discrimination based on race. That seems to match what I wrote above.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        According to dictionaries, the word is commonly used to describe prejudice and discrimination based on race.[48][49] From the two citations: [48] Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. [49] a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race Apple choosing to invest in educational and entrepreneurial programs for "Black and Brown companies" is in no way antagonism towards other races nor is it an indication that Apple supports a belief that any race is superior.
        nitsky 6y ago
        > Apple choosing to invest in educational and entrepreneurial programs for "Black and Brown companies" is in no way antagonism towards other races nor is it an indication that Apple supports a belief that any race is superior. I agree that it does not indicate "antagonism" or "superiority", but you left out "discrimination", which is right there in the definition in your comment. I believe that apple's program "discriminates" on the basis of race, and therefore is racist.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination "Discrimination is the act of making unjustified distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong.[1] People may be discriminated on the basis of race, gender, age or sexual orientation, as well as other categories.[2] Discrimination especially occurs when individuals or groups are unfairly treated in a way which is worse than other people are treated, on the basis of their actual or perceived membership in certain groups or social categories.[2][3] It involves restricting members of one group from opportunities or privileges that are available to members of another group.[4] Do you think Apple giving 100MM specifically to "Black and Brown companies" is unjustified?
throwaway744678 6y ago
A good thought experiment is replacing "Black and Brown" by "Caucasian". Not saying they should not do it, but there is an actual discrimination (a non-black and brown company won't have access to this).
- ziaddotcom 6y ago
  How is this 100MM reducing the amount of dollars available for Apple to invest in Caucasians in any meaningful way?
  - howeyc 6y ago
    Well, seeing as Apple's account balance is finite (there are only so many USD in circulation), seems pretty obvious to me.
    - ziaddotcom 6y ago
      If the investment precluded any participation by Caucasians (which it doesn't) can you think of a way that investing 100MM in "Black and Brown businesses" actually delivers returns well in excess of 100MM? It's almost as if investing in communities that have been underserved, could somehow, trickle through the economy as a whole at a disproportionally high rate of return. You know, as opposed to investing it where monetary wealth is already largely concentrated.
      - Grustaf 6y ago
        If the fund will not preclude any races then that of course settles it, but I think many got the impression that this program does preclude some groups. Regarding your second point, it is bot really relevant and if the project will “deliver returns” or not. Setting up a program that explicitly only invests in anglo-american harvard grads would probably give good returns too, but it would still be pretty racist.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago

Publicly stating that investments from a fund will only be given to particular racial groups likely meets most people’s definition of “discrimination on the basis of race”.

ziaddotcom 6y ago
Go ahead and say which racial groups that would be against, particularly relative to Apple's total investments in a given year.
- nitsky 6y ago
  These are the only investments I’m aware of that apple makes that are targeted at particular racial groups. The others are available without racial discrimination. While the racial composition of the recipients may not be in proportion with each race’s representation in the general population, I do not believe that makes them “racist”. In my view, “racism” is when race is made an explicit criterion in decision making, as apple is demonstrating here.
  - ziaddotcom 6y ago
    Are reservations for Native Americans racism by your definition then, since they are explicitly for Native Americans?
    - nitsky 6y ago
      No, reservations are not given on the basis of race, they are part of peace treaties negotiated between "countries" such as "the cherokee nation", "the navajo nation", etc. They are no more racist than treaties signed with other nations whose population is mostly one particular race. See wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation
      - ziaddotcom 6y ago
        why doesn't your definition of racism also have parity with Wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
        nitsky 6y ago
        From the article: > According to dictionaries, the word is commonly used to describe prejudice and discrimination based on race. That seems to match what I wrote above.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        According to dictionaries, the word is commonly used to describe prejudice and discrimination based on race.[48][49] From the two citations: [48] Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. [49] a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race Apple choosing to invest in educational and entrepreneurial programs for "Black and Brown companies" is in no way antagonism towards other races nor is it an indication that Apple supports a belief that any race is superior.
        nitsky 6y ago
        > Apple choosing to invest in educational and entrepreneurial programs for "Black and Brown companies" is in no way antagonism towards other races nor is it an indication that Apple supports a belief that any race is superior. I agree that it does not indicate "antagonism" or "superiority", but you left out "discrimination", which is right there in the definition in your comment. I believe that apple's program "discriminates" on the basis of race, and therefore is racist.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination "Discrimination is the act of making unjustified distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong.[1] People may be discriminated on the basis of race, gender, age or sexual orientation, as well as other categories.[2] Discrimination especially occurs when individuals or groups are unfairly treated in a way which is worse than other people are treated, on the basis of their actual or perceived membership in certain groups or social categories.[2][3] It involves restricting members of one group from opportunities or privileges that are available to members of another group.[4] Do you think Apple giving 100MM specifically to "Black and Brown companies" is unjustified?

throwaway744678 6y ago

A good thought experiment is replacing "Black and Brown" by "Caucasian". Not saying they should not do it, but there is an actual discrimination (a non-black and brown company won't have access to this).

ziaddotcom 6y ago
How is this 100MM reducing the amount of dollars available for Apple to invest in Caucasians in any meaningful way?
- howeyc 6y ago
  Well, seeing as Apple's account balance is finite (there are only so many USD in circulation), seems pretty obvious to me.
  - ziaddotcom 6y ago
    If the investment precluded any participation by Caucasians (which it doesn't) can you think of a way that investing 100MM in "Black and Brown businesses" actually delivers returns well in excess of 100MM? It's almost as if investing in communities that have been underserved, could somehow, trickle through the economy as a whole at a disproportionally high rate of return. You know, as opposed to investing it where monetary wealth is already largely concentrated.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      If the fund will not preclude any races then that of course settles it, but I think many got the impression that this program does preclude some groups. Regarding your second point, it is bot really relevant and if the project will “deliver returns” or not. Setting up a program that explicitly only invests in anglo-american harvard grads would probably give good returns too, but it would still be pretty racist.
      - ziaddotcom 6y ago