4 ms·

there's more to a job than the salary.

by moonbug 6y ago

f6v 6y ago
An important mission or great workplace culture don’t pay for mortgage.
- acatton 6y ago
  But even if you accept the paycut, it's not like the workplace culture is great: https://www.npr.org/2019/12/20/790101370/french-telecom-company-convicted-of-moral-harassment-after-employee-suicides https://www.npr.org/2019/12/20/790101370/french-telecom-comp...
  - sofixa 6y ago
    One case at a shitty former-public-becoming-private company. Not really applicable everywhere.
andi999 6y ago
But this goes hand in hand. If the salary is very high, management will try not to waste your potential. If low they might not care.
chrisseaton 6y ago
Right - I also want my work to be interesting and impactful, my colleagues to be motivated and talented, to get generous time off, etc... and guess what even in Europe the North American companies do better at all these aspects as well!
_hao 6y ago
There is, but it's the main consideration to be honest...
ftoscano 6y ago
Yes, there is more than just the salary. Except that, in Europe, most (if not all) forms of "equity" are proportional: your title, your salary, your ability to decide, etc. It becomes an equivalence: * Since you decide nothing, therefore your salary is low. * Since your salary is low, you therefore decide nothing. This stems fundamentally from a (backward?) European strict view of companies, regardless of how hierarchical/flat their structure may be. And that view is that the corporate environment is split into two groups: * Managers: they decide; * Workers: they do work. This split may have made sense in the Industrial Revolution era but it has shown it's age in this day and age. And yet the model (and the perception, and the values) persist. If you, as a knowledge worker, ever make the mistake of "getting down and get things done" you will have chosen your side.
- sofixa 6y ago
  > Except that, in Europe, most (if not all) forms of "equity" are proportional: your title, your salary, your ability to decide, etc. It's funny that you completely missed the point ( i think the other person is making). What about time off? Pension? Parental leave? Medical costs? Way of life ( as in, work stops at 6pm or 7pm or whatever, and then it's your free time; weekends are usually off limits; you don't have to own a car and waste hours in traffic depending on where you live, etc.) Furthermore, the rest of what you said is painting hundreds of thousands of business across more than 30 countries with the same brush. I work in a European company, and it's nothing like that. You shouldn't generalise like that.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    > What about time off? Pension? Parental leave? Medical costs? For top engineers, that's not really a concern in America.
    - kazen44 6y ago
      which is not the argument I think is important. I want healthcare for those around me aswell! why is this healthcare not an option for those in society who are less able to work or are good at jobs which are not engineering/high paying? art and education is a good example of this. without either, a society is reduced to nothing. why do these not deserve proper healthcare? because the free market has decided they are not worth it?
    - moonbug 6y ago
      I'm alright, Jack.
  - ftoscano 6y ago
    > Pension? Parental leave? Medical costs? All of the above are codified in law. Whenever a (large) company has their own internal programs (for higher pension, additional coverage) the values are proportional to your income. This "makes sense" given the separation of concerns: one dept appraises your performance and indicates salary adjustments. Another dept is responsible for providing additional benefits/perks to all employees (based on their salaries). Each dept gets to focus on their core competence. > What about time off? Much more flexibility (in terms of work schedule, work load, commitment) is afforded to those above than those whose work is depended on. Whenever managers travel around the world for worldwide management conferences in e.g. Thailand they can spend their vacation days there (i.e. the company is flexible with the bookings). This "makes sense" because it is far easier to be flexible towards those whose work is on the move and abstract, as opposed to work done exclusively in a fixed location (eg factory worker). Knowledge workers are in a weird spot (because their work is super abstract but done from a cubicle/home) but have been lumped into the latter category because "they aren't managers". > I work in a European company Me too. I have (physically) worked in DE, PL, PT. And have worked for even more countries -- and I stand by my generalization. The exception to the rule will be small companies, but organizational culture in those will always be different due to the lack of size. Moreover, the bigger the company the more extreme that equivalence is. Now onto specifics that I have observed over my 20+ years: > Way of life Oh yes, I love being micro-managed by a manager with PhD with 2 years of "work" experience. > weekends are usually off limits Except when managers make commitments without bothering to check what the actual effort is (because it was in their personal interest to say yes to things), ultimately putting you into a lovely position. Say no and be punished during your appraisal, say yes and work weekends. > you don't have to own a car and waste hours in traffic depending on where you live Managers received that perk long before knowledge workers did.
blaser-waffle 6y ago
All of the downvotes are saying a lot about HN, lol.

there's more to a job than the salary.

f6v 6y ago

An important mission or great workplace culture don’t pay for mortgage.

acatton 6y ago
But even if you accept the paycut, it's not like the workplace culture is great: https://www.npr.org/2019/12/20/790101370/french-telecom-company-convicted-of-moral-harassment-after-employee-suicides https://www.npr.org/2019/12/20/790101370/french-telecom-comp...
- sofixa 6y ago
  One case at a shitty former-public-becoming-private company. Not really applicable everywhere.

andi999 6y ago

But this goes hand in hand. If the salary is very high, management will try not to waste your potential. If low they might not care.

chrisseaton 6y ago

Right - I also want my work to be interesting and impactful, my colleagues to be motivated and talented, to get generous time off, etc... and guess what even in Europe the North American companies do better at all these aspects as well!

_hao 6y ago

There is, but it's the main consideration to be honest...

ftoscano 6y ago

Yes, there is more than just the salary. Except that, in Europe, most (if not all) forms of "equity" are proportional: your title, your salary, your ability to decide, etc. It becomes an equivalence: * Since you decide nothing, therefore your salary is low. * Since your salary is low, you therefore decide nothing. This stems fundamentally from a (backward?) European strict view of companies, regardless of how hierarchical/flat their structure may be. And that view is that the corporate environment is split into two groups: * Managers: they decide; * Workers: they do work. This split may have made sense in the Industrial Revolution era but it has shown it's age in this day and age. And yet the model (and the perception, and the values) persist. If you, as a knowledge worker, ever make the mistake of "getting down and get things done" you will have chosen your side.

sofixa 6y ago
> Except that, in Europe, most (if not all) forms of "equity" are proportional: your title, your salary, your ability to decide, etc. It's funny that you completely missed the point ( i think the other person is making). What about time off? Pension? Parental leave? Medical costs? Way of life ( as in, work stops at 6pm or 7pm or whatever, and then it's your free time; weekends are usually off limits; you don't have to own a car and waste hours in traffic depending on where you live, etc.) Furthermore, the rest of what you said is painting hundreds of thousands of business across more than 30 countries with the same brush. I work in a European company, and it's nothing like that. You shouldn't generalise like that.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > What about time off? Pension? Parental leave? Medical costs? For top engineers, that's not really a concern in America.
  - kazen44 6y ago
    which is not the argument I think is important. I want healthcare for those around me aswell! why is this healthcare not an option for those in society who are less able to work or are good at jobs which are not engineering/high paying? art and education is a good example of this. without either, a society is reduced to nothing. why do these not deserve proper healthcare? because the free market has decided they are not worth it?
  - moonbug 6y ago
    I'm alright, Jack.
- ftoscano 6y ago
  > Pension? Parental leave? Medical costs? All of the above are codified in law. Whenever a (large) company has their own internal programs (for higher pension, additional coverage) the values are proportional to your income. This "makes sense" given the separation of concerns: one dept appraises your performance and indicates salary adjustments. Another dept is responsible for providing additional benefits/perks to all employees (based on their salaries). Each dept gets to focus on their core competence. > What about time off? Much more flexibility (in terms of work schedule, work load, commitment) is afforded to those above than those whose work is depended on. Whenever managers travel around the world for worldwide management conferences in e.g. Thailand they can spend their vacation days there (i.e. the company is flexible with the bookings). This "makes sense" because it is far easier to be flexible towards those whose work is on the move and abstract, as opposed to work done exclusively in a fixed location (eg factory worker). Knowledge workers are in a weird spot (because their work is super abstract but done from a cubicle/home) but have been lumped into the latter category because "they aren't managers". > I work in a European company Me too. I have (physically) worked in DE, PL, PT. And have worked for even more countries -- and I stand by my generalization. The exception to the rule will be small companies, but organizational culture in those will always be different due to the lack of size. Moreover, the bigger the company the more extreme that equivalence is. Now onto specifics that I have observed over my 20+ years: > Way of life Oh yes, I love being micro-managed by a manager with PhD with 2 years of "work" experience. > weekends are usually off limits Except when managers make commitments without bothering to check what the actual effort is (because it was in their personal interest to say yes to things), ultimately putting you into a lovely position. Say no and be punished during your appraisal, say yes and work weekends. > you don't have to own a car and waste hours in traffic depending on where you live Managers received that perk long before knowledge workers did.

blaser-waffle 6y ago

All of the downvotes are saying a lot about HN, lol.