11 ms·

When I complained to an employer that it was too hard to request my vacation time (it's in my contract, they made it very hard to pick dates by always having an

When I complained to an employer that it was too hard to request my vacation time (it's in my contract, they made it very hard to pick dates by always having an emergency deadline, etc) they replied "It's like that everywhere", as if it was a legit answer. Many employers also lump in sick time with vacation time, as if that's a replacement since you didn't come into work. That would probably be okay, if you had an option to take unpaid vacation time when the time comes. Instead, you're often forced to take a shorter vacation, which doesn't do the job. And forcing you to work while on vacation is unforgiveable. It shows that the company doesn't understand why vacation time is necessary. (I haven't had anyone do this to me, thankfully. It wouldn't have gone well.) If taking unpaid vacations was an option, I would probably end up taking about 4 weeks worth of vacations, instead of 2.

jinushaun 15y ago
What really grinds my gears is when federal holidays count towards my "vacation time". Those alone eat up seven days! I request four weeks of vacation in my contract, but am afraid to use them. That's America.
- wccrawford 15y ago
  Oh wow, that's the first I've ever heard of that. That would not be acceptable for me. I think I'll be asking for more vacation time in future contracts, too. I managed to secure extra in the first year of my current contract because I had a need (planned trip) but in the future, I'm just going to require more. Of course, benefits and pay are interchangeable, so I might just request the ability to take unpaid vacation as needed, up to a certain amount.
  - knieveltech 15y ago
    I've started making vacation time a major part of the negotiation when taking a new position and in all instances I've brought it up during the interview process the interviewer acted alarmed. Even with my current position with a really cool small web shop they ended up interviewing me a 2nd time before offering the position. The key topic of conversation during the 2nd interview was basically the CEO trying to figure out if I planned on taking time off in some unspecified but inconvenient fashion that would leave the company in a bind.
    - euroclydon 15y ago
      It's easy to keep salary info private, not so with vacation time.
      - knieveltech 15y ago
        Now there's a piece of subtlety that wouldn't have occurred to me without having it pointed out by another. I guess I've got a bit of a blind spot since I don't care much about what other people in the company are getting compensation-wise.
  - lurker20 15y ago
    Sort of. The difference is that some benefits are linked to length-of-service or continuity-of-service, so an unpaid vacation in the USA can scuttle your health insurance, equity vest, 401(k) match, etc.
    - wccrawford 15y ago
      Please cite that. That could be very important, but I've never heard of such a thing before.
    - camiller 15y ago
      Bridge-of-service. I've seen someone leave a company (on good terms) come back two years later and the company gave the bridge-of-service with regards to 401(k), vacation, etc. He was really good though and the company really wanted him back.
- krschultz 15y ago
  I don't have holidays count but we have a 'holiday shutdown' for 5 days between Christmas and New Years, mandatory you can't work, but you burn your own vacation time. And I only get 2 weeks! Other options include taking the week unpaid, or working during the the other weeks in the year when you hvae a holiday and 'floating' it to the holiday shutdown. So next week I have memorial day off, but I'll make sure to work >40 hours in the remaining 4 days. Is 1 extra week of vacation really going to change the productivity of the place?
- PonyGumbo 15y ago
  I started a new job last year with 10 days of vacation. It wasn't until December that I learned that five of those days were mandatory for the week between Christmas and New Year's. If you had no vacation days left, it was unpaid time off.
  - bretthoerner 15y ago
    Since this is HN, there's a pretty good chance you're an Engineer of some kind. Where are you (or what do you do?) that companies can get away with this?
    - mattmanser 15y ago
      This is the norm in the UK, companies close over the holidays and there are mandatory holidays that go with that. Being clear about this with new (and especially young) employees is a good idea as to people straight out of college, it's not obvious. But there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.
      - rjh29 15y ago
        Is it really? My company runs over the holidays and our problem is actually finding people who can work during that time. Surely lots of tech companies have to keep running over Christmas?
      - bretthoerner 15y ago
        Mandatory closing are one thing. Hell, I'd like to have the holidays off anyway. But it's 50% of his total time off. Is that "the norm"?
        rmc 15y ago
        Considering the UK minimum holiday entitlement is 4 weeks and there are 2 public holidays there (Christmas Day and Boxing Day), employees only need to take 3 days annual leave (15% their yearly total) and the company can close for one calendar week.
- lurker20 15y ago
  If you are on a contract (which from context I am guessing is full-time per week, short-term), you can take vacation before or after the term, right?
- pstack 15y ago
  Whoa, I've never heard of that before. In my experience, there are company holidays and vacation days and "sick days". All are at the discretion of the employer as to what are observed and given, but I've never heard of them overlapping (ie, if your company observes ten holidays and you have ten vacation days, you get 20 days off that year). It seems like something you should be able to take up with your employer, because you requested vacation and they're counting holidays (something different) against them. That sees like a bit of a rip off. Of course, I know that even two weeks of vacation is considered a lot in this country and my mom works in a job where she doesn't get _any_ paid vacation, so . . .
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
mike_esspe 15y ago
Why don't you require this unpaid vacations before signing the contract? Probably you will have a lower salary, but more time for rest.
jasonkester 15y ago
Think about your choice of words up there, and you might just come up with your solution. Force. As in, my employer is forcing me to take shorter vacations. My employer is forcing me to work my vacations around their schedule. That's not what he's doing. He's coercing you. It's different. He's implying that if you take the vacation you want, there might not be a job waiting when you get back. The answer to that is "fine". If you truly don't care whether there's a job waiting on the other side, he loses all leverage. If you know for a fact that you could pick up another dev job inside of a week with a Facebook status update, he loses all leverage. In other words, the only reason you think your boss can "force" you to do anything is because you've given him that ability. Quit thinking in those terms and you'll live a much happier life.
- mvalle 15y ago
  or, if the employer knows that if she finds a replacement for you, she will have to find replacements for all her employees, then she won't bother coercing you at all.
  - xnerdr 15y ago
    and this is why i'm amazed programmers have not yet formed a union.
  - exit 15y ago
    xnerdr: all of your comments are being automatically deaded. you account has been quitely blacklisted or something.. xnerdr 2 hours ago | link | parent [dead] | on: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'? and this is why i'm amazed programmers have not yet formed a union.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  > "Quit thinking in those terms and you'll live a much happier life." I agree in principle, but it's not always so simple. When you're young, have no kids, no mortgage, no car loan, etc, it's pretty easy to just say "fuck off, see ya" when your employer acts abusively. When you have all of the above, that becomes more difficult. Relocating is more often than not the norm in this industry, and you don't exactly want to sell your house, or move your kids around, etc etc. Disclaimer: I don't have kids, or a mortgage, and I'm very mobile right now, but I also understand this probably won't last forever. It's a warning for living beyond your means anyways - I've noticed many people that I work with have huge mortgages out, to the point where the continuous stream of income becomes paramount - even a few months of interruption could possibly mean ruin for them. This strikes me as an idiotic fiscal policy.

jinushaun 15y ago

What really grinds my gears is when federal holidays count towards my "vacation time". Those alone eat up seven days! I request four weeks of vacation in my contract, but am afraid to use them. That's America.

wccrawford 15y ago
Oh wow, that's the first I've ever heard of that. That would not be acceptable for me. I think I'll be asking for more vacation time in future contracts, too. I managed to secure extra in the first year of my current contract because I had a need (planned trip) but in the future, I'm just going to require more. Of course, benefits and pay are interchangeable, so I might just request the ability to take unpaid vacation as needed, up to a certain amount.
- knieveltech 15y ago
  I've started making vacation time a major part of the negotiation when taking a new position and in all instances I've brought it up during the interview process the interviewer acted alarmed. Even with my current position with a really cool small web shop they ended up interviewing me a 2nd time before offering the position. The key topic of conversation during the 2nd interview was basically the CEO trying to figure out if I planned on taking time off in some unspecified but inconvenient fashion that would leave the company in a bind.
  - euroclydon 15y ago
    It's easy to keep salary info private, not so with vacation time.
    - knieveltech 15y ago
      Now there's a piece of subtlety that wouldn't have occurred to me without having it pointed out by another. I guess I've got a bit of a blind spot since I don't care much about what other people in the company are getting compensation-wise.
- lurker20 15y ago
  Sort of. The difference is that some benefits are linked to length-of-service or continuity-of-service, so an unpaid vacation in the USA can scuttle your health insurance, equity vest, 401(k) match, etc.
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    Please cite that. That could be very important, but I've never heard of such a thing before.
  - camiller 15y ago
    Bridge-of-service. I've seen someone leave a company (on good terms) come back two years later and the company gave the bridge-of-service with regards to 401(k), vacation, etc. He was really good though and the company really wanted him back.
krschultz 15y ago
I don't have holidays count but we have a 'holiday shutdown' for 5 days between Christmas and New Years, mandatory you can't work, but you burn your own vacation time. And I only get 2 weeks! Other options include taking the week unpaid, or working during the the other weeks in the year when you hvae a holiday and 'floating' it to the holiday shutdown. So next week I have memorial day off, but I'll make sure to work >40 hours in the remaining 4 days. Is 1 extra week of vacation really going to change the productivity of the place?
PonyGumbo 15y ago
I started a new job last year with 10 days of vacation. It wasn't until December that I learned that five of those days were mandatory for the week between Christmas and New Year's. If you had no vacation days left, it was unpaid time off.
- bretthoerner 15y ago
  Since this is HN, there's a pretty good chance you're an Engineer of some kind. Where are you (or what do you do?) that companies can get away with this?
  - mattmanser 15y ago
    This is the norm in the UK, companies close over the holidays and there are mandatory holidays that go with that. Being clear about this with new (and especially young) employees is a good idea as to people straight out of college, it's not obvious. But there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.
    - rjh29 15y ago
      Is it really? My company runs over the holidays and our problem is actually finding people who can work during that time. Surely lots of tech companies have to keep running over Christmas?
    - bretthoerner 15y ago
      Mandatory closing are one thing. Hell, I'd like to have the holidays off anyway. But it's 50% of his total time off. Is that "the norm"?
      - rmc 15y ago
        Considering the UK minimum holiday entitlement is 4 weeks and there are 2 public holidays there (Christmas Day and Boxing Day), employees only need to take 3 days annual leave (15% their yearly total) and the company can close for one calendar week.
lurker20 15y ago
If you are on a contract (which from context I am guessing is full-time per week, short-term), you can take vacation before or after the term, right?
pstack 15y ago
Whoa, I've never heard of that before. In my experience, there are company holidays and vacation days and "sick days". All are at the discretion of the employer as to what are observed and given, but I've never heard of them overlapping (ie, if your company observes ten holidays and you have ten vacation days, you get 20 days off that year). It seems like something you should be able to take up with your employer, because you requested vacation and they're counting holidays (something different) against them. That sees like a bit of a rip off. Of course, I know that even two weeks of vacation is considered a lot in this country and my mom works in a job where she doesn't get _any_ paid vacation, so . . .

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

mike_esspe 15y ago

Why don't you require this unpaid vacations before signing the contract? Probably you will have a lower salary, but more time for rest.

jasonkester 15y ago

Think about your choice of words up there, and you might just come up with your solution. Force. As in, my employer is forcing me to take shorter vacations. My employer is forcing me to work my vacations around their schedule. That's not what he's doing. He's coercing you. It's different. He's implying that if you take the vacation you want, there might not be a job waiting when you get back. The answer to that is "fine". If you truly don't care whether there's a job waiting on the other side, he loses all leverage. If you know for a fact that you could pick up another dev job inside of a week with a Facebook status update, he loses all leverage. In other words, the only reason you think your boss can "force" you to do anything is because you've given him that ability. Quit thinking in those terms and you'll live a much happier life.

mvalle 15y ago
or, if the employer knows that if she finds a replacement for you, she will have to find replacements for all her employees, then she won't bother coercing you at all.
- xnerdr 15y ago
  and this is why i'm amazed programmers have not yet formed a union.
- exit 15y ago
  xnerdr: all of your comments are being automatically deaded. you account has been quitely blacklisted or something.. xnerdr 2 hours ago | link | parent [dead] | on: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'? and this is why i'm amazed programmers have not yet formed a union.
potatolicious 15y ago
> "Quit thinking in those terms and you'll live a much happier life." I agree in principle, but it's not always so simple. When you're young, have no kids, no mortgage, no car loan, etc, it's pretty easy to just say "fuck off, see ya" when your employer acts abusively. When you have all of the above, that becomes more difficult. Relocating is more often than not the norm in this industry, and you don't exactly want to sell your house, or move your kids around, etc etc. Disclaimer: I don't have kids, or a mortgage, and I'm very mobile right now, but I also understand this probably won't last forever. It's a warning for living beyond your means anyways - I've noticed many people that I work with have huge mortgages out, to the point where the continuous stream of income becomes paramount - even a few months of interruption could possibly mean ruin for them. This strikes me as an idiotic fiscal policy.