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It's a disgusting practice. I don't care how time-honoured it is. Real people are involved here. Real violence. Real death. Showing someone a guillotine or a g

It's a disgusting practice. I don't care how time-honoured it is. Real people are involved here. Real violence. Real death. Showing someone a guillotine or a gallows or making threats to use deadly violence as part of a political protest is just plain wrong.

the8472 6y ago
I don't disagree that it's a threat. But that threat is always there anyway. We prefer the democratic process because it's less destructive than regular, bloody power transitions. A guillotine can be seen as a reminder for why we have democracy. So in a way it's a pro-democratic symbol as the threat is there to enforce democratic norms. The threat only becomes misguided if you're wrongly under the impression that democratic norms have been violated and thus you're threatening legitimately elected officials. Think of it as a prisoner's dilemma. Perfectly rational or virtuous prisoners might cooperate out of their own volition. But even very selfish prisoners might be convinced to cooperate if they repeatedly get reminded of the grisly outcomes that happen to defectors. We might prefer the former (virtuous actors) but if we can't rely on everyone being like that then encouraging good behavior through threats is the next best option which is still far more preferable than the worst possible equilibrium.
- 3pt14159 6y ago
  This is the same kind of thinking that leads to western states that support black propaganda. No. We do not need this. The grisly outcome that they who would defect should not be death. Economic hardship after months long protests which shut down the economy are a much better tool. Or even mass emigration to a safer or more just state. Gandhi was plenty effective enough. We do not need spirals of threats and violence and arms races.
rvn1045 6y ago
Back in the summer protestors stood outside Jeff Bezos's house with a guillotine: https://twitter.com/dcexaminer/status/1299022885231538176 https://twitter.com/dcexaminer/status/1299022885231538176
- 3pt14159 6y ago
  That is also disgusting. Bezos is still a human. I know I'm replying to each of these replies to me, but it's because I'm so concerned about the divisiveness of the politics we find ourselves in. It doesn't matter if it's on the left or the right. In a democracy or republic with free movement and free speech the tools are there to enact the change the public desires without weapons or slaughter or threats or violent symbolism. These are real people with real lives and living children and parents and friends.
  - rvn1045 6y ago
    I think we need to be careful with overreactionn on both the left and the right. For example simply looking at someones actions overreacting to it and calling it disgusting and then saying that whatever they did is absolutely irredeemable promotes a toxic political culture. This kind of intolerance of other viewpoints is part of the reason we are in todays mess.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 3pt14159 6y ago
      I agree with your general thrust, but I disagree with your conclusion. We need to say when things are wrong. It's vital. And right now what the right in America is doing is wrong. I'm not some absolutist left-winger. I once had a firearms license here in Canada. Though I'm a happy Liberal Party of Canada member, I've voted for Conservatives in the past and I'm open to doing so in the future. I do not have intolerance of other viewpoints. I actively seek out a broad range of views. What I have intolerance for is violence and calls to violence and lies. If that's the charge against me I happily accept whatever verdict you or anyone else will levy against me. The truth matters. Peace matters. I am unwilling to let these half truths go by without comment or rebuke.
austhrow743 6y ago
Threat of deadly violence is the weight that the political system throws around. To consider using them same to keep it in check to be disgusting is to ask to be used as a doormat.
- 3pt14159 6y ago
  I don't care if deadly violence or the threat of deadly violence "throws the political system around" it is completely counterproductive in the long run so long as the people in the system are free to communicate and assemble. Blowback is real and lasting. If enough people want change, organize a three month long protest where people actually leave their jobs and fields. There are plenty of legal and safe ways to change the course of a democracy or republic. We do not need men in viking hats storming the capital or symbols of mob-rule-sanctioned execution to fix things.
saargrin 6y ago
im super annoyed by people who are outraged about this then turn around and repost memes about eating the rich or guillotining/GULaging Jeff Bezos
- 3pt14159 6y ago
  I'm highly critical of certain billionaires, Bezos included, but I do not endorse or even tolerate language like "eat the rich" because I still value the humanity of people that I think are presently exploiting a broken political / economic system. Bezos has done some good. Especially on climate change. Just because we disagree on the distributive effects of capitalism doesn't mean we're not both part of the same human race and world.
  - saargrin 6y ago
    bezos ,almost single handedly, drove the whole concept of consumer accessible computing having been in the IT field throughout this period,i remember the awful pains you had to go thru to get any reasonable amount of computing power ,including purchasing hardware with months-long leads and having to deal with import/export documents and shipment ,not to mention things that are completely irrelevant like power requirements and rack weight per sqm of datacenter space this has changed completely and now anybody with a bright idea can spin up a cluster of tremendous capacity for literally a few dollars that would deliver enterprise grade software (like RDS , EMR or ML engines) that you as a startup wouldnt have been able to license at all this has been an immense boon to humanity for which Bezos deserves every single penny of his fortune
    - 3pt14159 6y ago
      I was also in the IT field before the dot com bubble burst. You're right that he's done a lot to enable startups, but there were other options before AWS came around. Rackspace, Linode, etc. But I will say this: AWS really has done a lot of good to improve security in software. Their cloud is massive and the security options they provide are great. They also simplify many otherwise complex things for many people, but I disagree that Bezos deserves every single penny of his fortune. He doesn't pay enough in tax. The loophole of never paying tax if you don't sell your shares is stupid. He gets to do all the cool billionaire things like building space rockets, etc. And meanwhile people with conditions where going to the loo take longer (PTSD, IBS, ETC) are in pain holding their bladders all day because they can't afford to lose their job because they have desperate families to feed and clothe.

the8472 6y ago

I don't disagree that it's a threat. But that threat is always there anyway. We prefer the democratic process because it's less destructive than regular, bloody power transitions. A guillotine can be seen as a reminder for why we have democracy. So in a way it's a pro-democratic symbol as the threat is there to enforce democratic norms. The threat only becomes misguided if you're wrongly under the impression that democratic norms have been violated and thus you're threatening legitimately elected officials. Think of it as a prisoner's dilemma. Perfectly rational or virtuous prisoners might cooperate out of their own volition. But even very selfish prisoners might be convinced to cooperate if they repeatedly get reminded of the grisly outcomes that happen to defectors. We might prefer the former (virtuous actors) but if we can't rely on everyone being like that then encouraging good behavior through threats is the next best option which is still far more preferable than the worst possible equilibrium.

3pt14159 6y ago
This is the same kind of thinking that leads to western states that support black propaganda. No. We do not need this. The grisly outcome that they who would defect should not be death. Economic hardship after months long protests which shut down the economy are a much better tool. Or even mass emigration to a safer or more just state. Gandhi was plenty effective enough. We do not need spirals of threats and violence and arms races.

rvn1045 6y ago

Back in the summer protestors stood outside Jeff Bezos's house with a guillotine: https://twitter.com/dcexaminer/status/1299022885231538176 https://twitter.com/dcexaminer/status/1299022885231538176

3pt14159 6y ago
That is also disgusting. Bezos is still a human. I know I'm replying to each of these replies to me, but it's because I'm so concerned about the divisiveness of the politics we find ourselves in. It doesn't matter if it's on the left or the right. In a democracy or republic with free movement and free speech the tools are there to enact the change the public desires without weapons or slaughter or threats or violent symbolism. These are real people with real lives and living children and parents and friends.
- rvn1045 6y ago
  I think we need to be careful with overreactionn on both the left and the right. For example simply looking at someones actions overreacting to it and calling it disgusting and then saying that whatever they did is absolutely irredeemable promotes a toxic political culture. This kind of intolerance of other viewpoints is part of the reason we are in todays mess.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 3pt14159 6y ago
    I agree with your general thrust, but I disagree with your conclusion. We need to say when things are wrong. It's vital. And right now what the right in America is doing is wrong. I'm not some absolutist left-winger. I once had a firearms license here in Canada. Though I'm a happy Liberal Party of Canada member, I've voted for Conservatives in the past and I'm open to doing so in the future. I do not have intolerance of other viewpoints. I actively seek out a broad range of views. What I have intolerance for is violence and calls to violence and lies. If that's the charge against me I happily accept whatever verdict you or anyone else will levy against me. The truth matters. Peace matters. I am unwilling to let these half truths go by without comment or rebuke.

austhrow743 6y ago

Threat of deadly violence is the weight that the political system throws around. To consider using them same to keep it in check to be disgusting is to ask to be used as a doormat.

3pt14159 6y ago
I don't care if deadly violence or the threat of deadly violence "throws the political system around" it is completely counterproductive in the long run so long as the people in the system are free to communicate and assemble. Blowback is real and lasting. If enough people want change, organize a three month long protest where people actually leave their jobs and fields. There are plenty of legal and safe ways to change the course of a democracy or republic. We do not need men in viking hats storming the capital or symbols of mob-rule-sanctioned execution to fix things.

saargrin 6y ago

im super annoyed by people who are outraged about this then turn around and repost memes about eating the rich or guillotining/GULaging Jeff Bezos

3pt14159 6y ago
I'm highly critical of certain billionaires, Bezos included, but I do not endorse or even tolerate language like "eat the rich" because I still value the humanity of people that I think are presently exploiting a broken political / economic system. Bezos has done some good. Especially on climate change. Just because we disagree on the distributive effects of capitalism doesn't mean we're not both part of the same human race and world.
- saargrin 6y ago
  bezos ,almost single handedly, drove the whole concept of consumer accessible computing having been in the IT field throughout this period,i remember the awful pains you had to go thru to get any reasonable amount of computing power ,including purchasing hardware with months-long leads and having to deal with import/export documents and shipment ,not to mention things that are completely irrelevant like power requirements and rack weight per sqm of datacenter space this has changed completely and now anybody with a bright idea can spin up a cluster of tremendous capacity for literally a few dollars that would deliver enterprise grade software (like RDS , EMR or ML engines) that you as a startup wouldnt have been able to license at all this has been an immense boon to humanity for which Bezos deserves every single penny of his fortune
  - 3pt14159 6y ago
    I was also in the IT field before the dot com bubble burst. You're right that he's done a lot to enable startups, but there were other options before AWS came around. Rackspace, Linode, etc. But I will say this: AWS really has done a lot of good to improve security in software. Their cloud is massive and the security options they provide are great. They also simplify many otherwise complex things for many people, but I disagree that Bezos deserves every single penny of his fortune. He doesn't pay enough in tax. The loophole of never paying tax if you don't sell your shares is stupid. He gets to do all the cool billionaire things like building space rockets, etc. And meanwhile people with conditions where going to the loo take longer (PTSD, IBS, ETC) are in pain holding their bladders all day because they can't afford to lose their job because they have desperate families to feed and clothe.