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With all due respect, this comment reflects a poor understanding of decentralized projects and, particularly, public blockchains. > the owners are ... selling

With all due respect, this comment reflects a poor understanding of decentralized projects and, particularly, public blockchains. > the owners are ... selling the DNS naming hierarchy The blockchain is providing names in a global namespace owned by the commons. I cannot understand why you have been harassing and stalking this project with troll-like behavior and rude, snarky comments. Let's try to be constructive and provide value to society and the future. The next generation reads these threads, and they look up to you. There's no reason for you to change that. And with that respect, not to sound all Uncle Ben on you, does come responsibility. Either way, love you tptacek and appreciate your contributions to HN. I can honestly say myself, that I've learned a lot by simply being audience to your conversation. Cheers.

tptacek 6y ago
I can sort of understand the idea of people starting a new parallel naming system as a piece of Internet infrastructure, sort of the same way DNS happened. Where you lose me, like, all the way across the horizon is where the people who start that infrastructure do it with a traded coin that they've premined, allocated huge chunks of to themselves, and then "airdropped" to a set of developers they collected in 2018. Why would anybody sign up for this? I genuinely have a hard time understanding why anybody would take this seriously. It's a plan to replace the DNS roots with... some company? That just decided they should be the ones to own it?
- rasengan 6y ago
  > sort of the same way DNS happened. Actually, almost everything happened that way in the history of mankind, right? xD > the people who start that infrastructure do it with a traded coin All the names could be registered by one monopolistic player on the public blockchain. That's why a cost function is required. > that they've premined, allocated huge chunks of to themselves A huge chunk was not allocated to anyone other than FOSS developers. Please review the paper [1] for specific allocations. > "airdropped" to a set of developers they collected in 2018. To be clear, this set consists of any developer on github who had 15 or more followers in 2019, the PGP web of trust strong set, and anyone on HN who had a keybase account in their profile. > Why would anybody sign up for this? I genuinely have a hard time understanding why anybody would take this seriously. I don't think there is anything to sign up for? Secondly, you absolutely don't need to use the new internet if you don't want to - just like nobody forces you to use anything else in this world. You have a choice. That said, we'll miss you. :( > It's a plan to replace the DNS roots with... some company? That just decided they should be the ones to own it? So actually, the DNS root is owned by some company [2] that is under the jurisdiction of California law. It used to be, and still basically is, owned by the US Department of Commerce. Internet users are replacing it with a public blockchain owned by the commons. Historically, revolutions happen all the time. Now it's the time for democratization of naming. Is there any good reason why we shouldn't own our own names? I think that the name might even be more valuable than money. What is anything without a name? [1] https://handshake.org/files/handshake.txt https://handshake.org/files/handshake.txt [2] https://www.icann.org/ https://www.icann.org/
  - tptacek 6y ago
    This is probably the one time on the history of this whole website that I'll just refer you to what 'tialaramex said.
  - freedomben 6y ago
    > To be clear, this set consists of any developer on github who had 15 or more followers in 2019, the PGP web of trust strong set, and anyone on HN who had a keybase account in their profile. Could you clarify a bit for me? I checked both of those boxes. Does that mean I have some of this premined crypto somewhere? How would I get to it? The paper you linked to is very long, but I am intrigued so will likely check it out. I love the idea here. Decentralized web is sorely needed. If we can make it usable, that would be amazing.
    - rasengan 6y ago
      Absolutely! There is a page that describes the airdrop and includes a script to claim it [1]. If you have checked those boxes, it very well does mean you may have some premined somewhere. You could also try Bob [2] as well. I agree with you! Recent times have shown how much we need the decentralized web than ever before. [1] https://github.com/handshake-org/hs-airdrop https://github.com/handshake-org/hs-airdrop [2] https://github.com/kyokan/bob-wallet https://github.com/kyokan/bob-wallet
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    > you absolutely don't need to use the new internet if you don't want to Yeah, no, that's not how this works. People don't want your "new internet". People want the Network, and in our era it so happens that's the Internet (previously it was the Public Switched Telephone Network, and before that the Universal Postal Union). But it isn't your "new internet" of a few enthusiasts who are sure it'll work this time even though it hasn't worked the previous times it was tried. > Is there any good reason why we shouldn't own our own names? A name is what something is called. In London there is a famous river crossing which was officially named after an equally famous politician. William Pitt (the Elder). But people didn't call it "William Pitt Bridge" or even "Pitt Bridge". People called it "Blackfriars" because that's the district of London it is in. Nobody you ask in London will know where "Pitt Bridge" is. There is no "Pitt Bridge" you want "Blackfriars". Perhaps you've never visited London. Lots of HN folks are from Silicon Valley. San Francisco has a bridge that joins the city to Oakland, I happen to believe it should be named after the Emperor, "Norton Bridge" seems like a good name. But is that what it's named? No, because even if a few agree with me, on the whole people call it the "Bay bridge" and a name is what something is called. This seems to be a hard concept for some people to manage, but it's mandatory, so there isn't anything I can do about that. > Historically, revolutions happen all the time. Historically most attempted revolutions fail. In hindsight it is often clear they could never have succeeded. I think Americans have a fairly recent memory of what failed revolution looks like. > So actually, the DNS root is owned by some company that is under the jurisdiction of California law. In practice (and perhaps this will annoy tptacek but too bad) this isn't usefully true. ICANN's control of the DNS root is by consent, the same way that say, the English Parliament is sovereign by consent, so just because California law says they can do something does not in fact mean it will have the effect envisioned in California law.
tialaramex 6y ago
There are quite a few things I don't agree with tptacek about. But this is just the latest of a long series of hijack attempts for this namespace (the Internet's DNS hierarchy) and it's about time people learned that can't work. Successful namespace hijacks rely on overwhelming numbers. You need to have so many people using your hijacked namespace that you've got way more people who do not even know that it's a hijack but are using it anyway than the existing administrators had total engagement so that it's pointless to argue with you. Handshake can't get there from here, most of the world now uses the DNS hierarchy. This was a fool's errand. Carving themselves out a niche might have been possible, if they had been content with a niche but it's clear that their financial motives dictated they try for the impossible instead.
- rasengan 6y ago
  Handshake doesn't replace the DNS hierarchy - it simply upgrades the root. Like all things in the world, the namespace will be democratized. The people do deserve to own their own namespace, and even if you wish or hope for democracy to fail, I'm confident either this project or another will one day succeed. Everyone in the community is selflessly working towards this goal for you and everyone else in this world's benefit. It's a quiet space without accolade or reward. If they are fools, then I hope to be the biggest fool. Finally, nothing in life is forever just like nothing is impossible my friend. As a hacker and developer, we always find a way.
- tasuki 6y ago
  To be fair, the "hijacked" namespace reserved all the current TLDs for the current owners. Handshake is trying very hard to be backwards compatible and not to break the internet.

tptacek 6y ago

I can sort of understand the idea of people starting a new parallel naming system as a piece of Internet infrastructure, sort of the same way DNS happened. Where you lose me, like, all the way across the horizon is where the people who start that infrastructure do it with a traded coin that they've premined, allocated huge chunks of to themselves, and then "airdropped" to a set of developers they collected in 2018. Why would anybody sign up for this? I genuinely have a hard time understanding why anybody would take this seriously. It's a plan to replace the DNS roots with... some company? That just decided they should be the ones to own it?

rasengan 6y ago
> sort of the same way DNS happened. Actually, almost everything happened that way in the history of mankind, right? xD > the people who start that infrastructure do it with a traded coin All the names could be registered by one monopolistic player on the public blockchain. That's why a cost function is required. > that they've premined, allocated huge chunks of to themselves A huge chunk was not allocated to anyone other than FOSS developers. Please review the paper [1] for specific allocations. > "airdropped" to a set of developers they collected in 2018. To be clear, this set consists of any developer on github who had 15 or more followers in 2019, the PGP web of trust strong set, and anyone on HN who had a keybase account in their profile. > Why would anybody sign up for this? I genuinely have a hard time understanding why anybody would take this seriously. I don't think there is anything to sign up for? Secondly, you absolutely don't need to use the new internet if you don't want to - just like nobody forces you to use anything else in this world. You have a choice. That said, we'll miss you. :( > It's a plan to replace the DNS roots with... some company? That just decided they should be the ones to own it? So actually, the DNS root is owned by some company [2] that is under the jurisdiction of California law. It used to be, and still basically is, owned by the US Department of Commerce. Internet users are replacing it with a public blockchain owned by the commons. Historically, revolutions happen all the time. Now it's the time for democratization of naming. Is there any good reason why we shouldn't own our own names? I think that the name might even be more valuable than money. What is anything without a name? [1] https://handshake.org/files/handshake.txt https://handshake.org/files/handshake.txt [2] https://www.icann.org/ https://www.icann.org/
- tptacek 6y ago
  This is probably the one time on the history of this whole website that I'll just refer you to what 'tialaramex said.
- freedomben 6y ago
  > To be clear, this set consists of any developer on github who had 15 or more followers in 2019, the PGP web of trust strong set, and anyone on HN who had a keybase account in their profile. Could you clarify a bit for me? I checked both of those boxes. Does that mean I have some of this premined crypto somewhere? How would I get to it? The paper you linked to is very long, but I am intrigued so will likely check it out. I love the idea here. Decentralized web is sorely needed. If we can make it usable, that would be amazing.
  - rasengan 6y ago
    Absolutely! There is a page that describes the airdrop and includes a script to claim it [1]. If you have checked those boxes, it very well does mean you may have some premined somewhere. You could also try Bob [2] as well. I agree with you! Recent times have shown how much we need the decentralized web than ever before. [1] https://github.com/handshake-org/hs-airdrop https://github.com/handshake-org/hs-airdrop [2] https://github.com/kyokan/bob-wallet https://github.com/kyokan/bob-wallet
- tialaramex 6y ago
  > you absolutely don't need to use the new internet if you don't want to Yeah, no, that's not how this works. People don't want your "new internet". People want the Network, and in our era it so happens that's the Internet (previously it was the Public Switched Telephone Network, and before that the Universal Postal Union). But it isn't your "new internet" of a few enthusiasts who are sure it'll work this time even though it hasn't worked the previous times it was tried. > Is there any good reason why we shouldn't own our own names? A name is what something is called. In London there is a famous river crossing which was officially named after an equally famous politician. William Pitt (the Elder). But people didn't call it "William Pitt Bridge" or even "Pitt Bridge". People called it "Blackfriars" because that's the district of London it is in. Nobody you ask in London will know where "Pitt Bridge" is. There is no "Pitt Bridge" you want "Blackfriars". Perhaps you've never visited London. Lots of HN folks are from Silicon Valley. San Francisco has a bridge that joins the city to Oakland, I happen to believe it should be named after the Emperor, "Norton Bridge" seems like a good name. But is that what it's named? No, because even if a few agree with me, on the whole people call it the "Bay bridge" and a name is what something is called. This seems to be a hard concept for some people to manage, but it's mandatory, so there isn't anything I can do about that. > Historically, revolutions happen all the time. Historically most attempted revolutions fail. In hindsight it is often clear they could never have succeeded. I think Americans have a fairly recent memory of what failed revolution looks like. > So actually, the DNS root is owned by some company that is under the jurisdiction of California law. In practice (and perhaps this will annoy tptacek but too bad) this isn't usefully true. ICANN's control of the DNS root is by consent, the same way that say, the English Parliament is sovereign by consent, so just because California law says they can do something does not in fact mean it will have the effect envisioned in California law.

tialaramex 6y ago

There are quite a few things I don't agree with tptacek about. But this is just the latest of a long series of hijack attempts for this namespace (the Internet's DNS hierarchy) and it's about time people learned that can't work. Successful namespace hijacks rely on overwhelming numbers. You need to have so many people using your hijacked namespace that you've got way more people who do not even know that it's a hijack but are using it anyway than the existing administrators had total engagement so that it's pointless to argue with you. Handshake can't get there from here, most of the world now uses the DNS hierarchy. This was a fool's errand. Carving themselves out a niche might have been possible, if they had been content with a niche but it's clear that their financial motives dictated they try for the impossible instead.

rasengan 6y ago
Handshake doesn't replace the DNS hierarchy - it simply upgrades the root. Like all things in the world, the namespace will be democratized. The people do deserve to own their own namespace, and even if you wish or hope for democracy to fail, I'm confident either this project or another will one day succeed. Everyone in the community is selflessly working towards this goal for you and everyone else in this world's benefit. It's a quiet space without accolade or reward. If they are fools, then I hope to be the biggest fool. Finally, nothing in life is forever just like nothing is impossible my friend. As a hacker and developer, we always find a way.
tasuki 6y ago
To be fair, the "hijacked" namespace reserved all the current TLDs for the current owners. Handshake is trying very hard to be backwards compatible and not to break the internet.