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> If you agree with tenant eviction protections, then you should probably support similar eviction protections for cloud computing I can't say I agree or that

> If you agree with tenant eviction protections, then you should probably support similar eviction protections for cloud computing I can't say I agree or that I find this analogy valid. Tenant eviction protection is, in part, to protect human life acknowledging the necessity of shelter. The same just doesn't apply to cloud computing.

Shish2k 6y ago
Logically I agree with you, but we’re living in a world where “corporations are people”, so...
wegs 6y ago
It's an analogy. None are perfect. But people need livelihoods to live. It's not okay or fair to destroy a business arbitrarily and capriciously. My lesson here is that the Internet is essential infrastructure, and once companies reach a certain size (Google, Facebook, AWS), they should be regulated similarly to public utilities. An electric company shouldn't be able to cut off electricity to a crack house or brothel unless law enforcement first asks for it. Law enforcement should have due process appropriate to the situation; a terrorist attack should be cut off right now. A company making pirated copies of Windows should have their day in court. Your propaganda-believing gun-toting drunk crazy uncle should probably keep their electricity (which isn't to say he shouldn't be handled somehow, but perhaps committed to a medical facility). I don't feel good or bad about them being taken off-line, since I don't actually know what they hosted. I do feel bad about that decision being made by corporations behind closed doors.
- Falling3 6y ago
  > It's an analogy. None are perfect It's more than just an analogy when the parent comment claimed that if you support one, you should support the other. I'm not disagreeing that the scenarios aren't analogous. I'm disagreeing that the same logic that makes one of those things essential to a functioning society should be tried to be wedged in as an argument for the other.
- lupire 6y ago
  Should it be illegal for me to cancel a subscription because the vendor needs the money? No one is entitled to income from their source of choosing. Government provides welfare, not whoever you want to do business with.
  - jwalton 6y ago
    There is, perhaps, a slightly different power dynamic between you as a subscriber paying $9 a month, and you as a client of a huge near monopoly who can kill your livelihood at the whim of an algorithm.
- bwilli123 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk The devil speech from 'A Man For All Seasons'
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >It's not okay or fair to destroy a business arbitrarily and capriciously. Yeah! The employees of organized criminal gangs need to feed their families too! They're honest, hardworking people. Why should they be penalized because the repressive system in which they live persecutes them for extortion, robbery, murder, sex trafficking and the like. Arresting them and putting them in jail is just cruel and unfair!
  - aqsalose 6y ago
    >Arresting them and putting them in jail is just cruel and unfair! Isn't this the point? It isn't a responsibility of the electricity company or the landlord to investigate or apply punishments in criminal matters. Arresting them and putting them in jail is something the lawful authorities do, and there is a due process for it.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    Haven't we been discussing for a long time now how section 230 of the CDA makes them immune for the content posted by users? I don't think 'organized criminal gangs' is an apt description of Parler given that.
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      You're right. Even though it's only a few hours ago, I'm not really sure exactly what point I was trying to make. Which is kind of sad. I think I need some sleep. If I can remember what the hell I was blathering on about after I wake up, I'll post again. Thanks for calling me out.
      - Natsu 6y ago
        This is a stressful time for a lot of people. I appreciate the note and wish you a good day!
- wonnage 6y ago
  no analogy is perfect so every analogy is valid, huh
- causalmodels 6y ago
  That’s is because the electric company are monopolies created by the government. And unlike power utilities there are zero laws about which cloud provider you are forced to used. Parler is not some rube. They are a company with access to legal counsel. They agreed to moderate their end users in accordance with Amazon’s content policy and chose not to. They made extremely stupid decisions they do not deserve to be coddled for.
  - wegs 6y ago
    Most utilities weren't created by the government. My local power company came from a series of merges of companies founded in the eighteen-hundreds. The government, at some point, decided to regulate utilities. It certainly didn't create them or their monopolies. Most have a natural monopoly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly). It was a good idea, at the time, and it's just helpful to update our list of what constitutes a utility.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  > perhaps committed to a medical facility Even this might be a slippery slope – in the URSS at some point it was common to put political dissidents in mad houses. But it's not a problem as long as there is due process… which wasn't the case for Parler !
  - cestith 6y ago
    Contract disputes between businesses get their due process after the fact in civil court, as has always been the case.
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      The discussion is around a landlord/tenant metaphor.
      - cestith 6y ago
        You can say by analogy that you think due process should come before the fact, but your choice of analogy does not change how the law works.
        BlueTemplar 6y ago
        The discussion is about how maybe the law should work.
adamredwoods 6y ago
Houses don't get DDoS attacks, or data stolen in 10ms. It's an analogy unto it's own, and it needs new guidelines. We're seeing them made as we progress.
koheripbal 6y ago
I think it's pretty analogous to a commercial tenant lease. Commercial leases usually have limited contractual clauses to allow eviction of paying tenants within the, usually 10 year, term. Of course because AWS/GCS/MCS are sort of an oligopoly, they don't have long duration terms. Regardless of what end of this debate you're on, I wouldn't be surprised if more customers didn't start asking for lease terms. If I were really any right-leaning media organization I'd really hesitate going to a cloud provider without some sort of durable contract. Think about - is Fox News at risk if it's on AWS? What about The Wall Street Journal? Even Bloomberg has pretty right-leaning opinion pieces often... should they be worried about their content triggering a backlash since there's no contract? ...or maybe we'll just see a resurgence self-hosted platforms?

Shish2k 6y ago

Logically I agree with you, but we’re living in a world where “corporations are people”, so...

wegs 6y ago

It's an analogy. None are perfect. But people need livelihoods to live. It's not okay or fair to destroy a business arbitrarily and capriciously. My lesson here is that the Internet is essential infrastructure, and once companies reach a certain size (Google, Facebook, AWS), they should be regulated similarly to public utilities. An electric company shouldn't be able to cut off electricity to a crack house or brothel unless law enforcement first asks for it. Law enforcement should have due process appropriate to the situation; a terrorist attack should be cut off right now. A company making pirated copies of Windows should have their day in court. Your propaganda-believing gun-toting drunk crazy uncle should probably keep their electricity (which isn't to say he shouldn't be handled somehow, but perhaps committed to a medical facility). I don't feel good or bad about them being taken off-line, since I don't actually know what they hosted. I do feel bad about that decision being made by corporations behind closed doors.

Falling3 6y ago
> It's an analogy. None are perfect It's more than just an analogy when the parent comment claimed that if you support one, you should support the other. I'm not disagreeing that the scenarios aren't analogous. I'm disagreeing that the same logic that makes one of those things essential to a functioning society should be tried to be wedged in as an argument for the other.
lupire 6y ago
Should it be illegal for me to cancel a subscription because the vendor needs the money? No one is entitled to income from their source of choosing. Government provides welfare, not whoever you want to do business with.
- jwalton 6y ago
  There is, perhaps, a slightly different power dynamic between you as a subscriber paying $9 a month, and you as a client of a huge near monopoly who can kill your livelihood at the whim of an algorithm.
bwilli123 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk The devil speech from 'A Man For All Seasons'
nobody9999 6y ago
>It's not okay or fair to destroy a business arbitrarily and capriciously. Yeah! The employees of organized criminal gangs need to feed their families too! They're honest, hardworking people. Why should they be penalized because the repressive system in which they live persecutes them for extortion, robbery, murder, sex trafficking and the like. Arresting them and putting them in jail is just cruel and unfair!
- aqsalose 6y ago
  >Arresting them and putting them in jail is just cruel and unfair! Isn't this the point? It isn't a responsibility of the electricity company or the landlord to investigate or apply punishments in criminal matters. Arresting them and putting them in jail is something the lawful authorities do, and there is a due process for it.
- Natsu 6y ago
  Haven't we been discussing for a long time now how section 230 of the CDA makes them immune for the content posted by users? I don't think 'organized criminal gangs' is an apt description of Parler given that.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    You're right. Even though it's only a few hours ago, I'm not really sure exactly what point I was trying to make. Which is kind of sad. I think I need some sleep. If I can remember what the hell I was blathering on about after I wake up, I'll post again. Thanks for calling me out.
    - Natsu 6y ago
      This is a stressful time for a lot of people. I appreciate the note and wish you a good day!
wonnage 6y ago
no analogy is perfect so every analogy is valid, huh
causalmodels 6y ago
That’s is because the electric company are monopolies created by the government. And unlike power utilities there are zero laws about which cloud provider you are forced to used. Parler is not some rube. They are a company with access to legal counsel. They agreed to moderate their end users in accordance with Amazon’s content policy and chose not to. They made extremely stupid decisions they do not deserve to be coddled for.
- wegs 6y ago
  Most utilities weren't created by the government. My local power company came from a series of merges of companies founded in the eighteen-hundreds. The government, at some point, decided to regulate utilities. It certainly didn't create them or their monopolies. Most have a natural monopoly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly). It was a good idea, at the time, and it's just helpful to update our list of what constitutes a utility.
BlueTemplar 6y ago
> perhaps committed to a medical facility Even this might be a slippery slope – in the URSS at some point it was common to put political dissidents in mad houses. But it's not a problem as long as there is due process… which wasn't the case for Parler !
- cestith 6y ago
  Contract disputes between businesses get their due process after the fact in civil court, as has always been the case.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    The discussion is around a landlord/tenant metaphor.
    - cestith 6y ago
      You can say by analogy that you think due process should come before the fact, but your choice of analogy does not change how the law works.
      - BlueTemplar 6y ago
        The discussion is about how maybe the law should work.

adamredwoods 6y ago

Houses don't get DDoS attacks, or data stolen in 10ms. It's an analogy unto it's own, and it needs new guidelines. We're seeing them made as we progress.

koheripbal 6y ago

I think it's pretty analogous to a commercial tenant lease. Commercial leases usually have limited contractual clauses to allow eviction of paying tenants within the, usually 10 year, term. Of course because AWS/GCS/MCS are sort of an oligopoly, they don't have long duration terms. Regardless of what end of this debate you're on, I wouldn't be surprised if more customers didn't start asking for lease terms. If I were really any right-leaning media organization I'd really hesitate going to a cloud provider without some sort of durable contract. Think about - is Fox News at risk if it's on AWS? What about The Wall Street Journal? Even Bloomberg has pretty right-leaning opinion pieces often... should they be worried about their content triggering a backlash since there's no contract? ...or maybe we'll just see a resurgence self-hosted platforms?