5 ms·

The Smalltalk Zoo

78 points by gjvc 6y ago

sblom 6y ago
It has always fascinated me that Smalltalk nearly universally comes with a window system and self-editing run-time. I remember Sun's "Lively Kernel" project. It looks like this has some of that DNA in it. I can't claim to have ever bent my brain to quite grok Smalltalk-and-attendant-tools, but I definitely appreciate its contribution to our software heritage and see traces of it all around, especially in the NeXT/Apple ecosystem.
- gjvc 6y ago
  This is very much powered by the lively kernel. Dan H. H. Ingalls, the main programmer of Smalltalk-72, created The Lively Kernel and the Smalltalk Zoo site. It's great to see him continue his work. I think that Lively Kernel has huge potential to influence the current web. When you consider something like how this site (HN) operates, and could be implemented using something like the LK, perhaps we can start programming interactive systems better than we do. Note that the Lively Kernel dates from 2007 (!) -- development continues to be supported by the Hasso-Plattner institute in Potsdam, Germany. https://lively-next.org/ https://lively-next.org/
  - hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
    What is the exclamation point for? Is 2007 old?
- igouy 6y ago
  "Dan Ingalls on the History of Smalltalk and the Lively Kernel" https://www.infoq.com/interviews/ingalls-smalltalk/ https://www.infoq.com/interviews/ingalls-smalltalk/
- fctorial 6y ago
  So does javascript. It's just that js is too mainstream, and a lot more practical.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - remexre 6y ago
    I've never seen Smalltalk-style self-editing in a JavaScript framework; is there a specific one you're referring to? Or just the fact that it has eval()?
    - fctorial 6y ago
      You can edit html in devtools. You can also edit and save js files in devtools source tab and changes will be immediately visible. I think browser exposes apis for reloading as well, which is what framework devtools use (not sure about that one) so you don't have to use the browser for development. Does smalltalk provide anything over and above that?
      - mumblemumble 6y ago
        So much more over and above that.
      - ljm 6y ago
        You're describing an editor combined with a debugger. JS isn't your chrome inspector. You can't really do a like-for-like comparison. I encourage you to check out Pharo or Squeak, and at least do the intro tutorial, to see the difference for yourself. That's not to be elitist, it's just really worth trying out.
        mumblemumble 6y ago
        Or, perhaps even easier, check out one of these online Smalltalks in Smalltalk Zoo.
fniephaus 6y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25461760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25461760
- dang 6y ago
  Normally that would make us mark this one as a dupe, but the posts are subtly different enough, and the material so interesting, that maybe we can leave this one up. Hopefully people will investigate the actual contents of said zoo and comment on those, rather than just generically about Smalltalk.
mumblemumble 6y ago
The Smalltalk-72 emulator is particularly fascinating. Both to be seeing what they had accomplished 48 years ago, and to think that they've got a decent emulation of it running in the browser. Haven't actually made it very far in, just due to learning curve. So many UI conventions that we take for granted nowadays but that didn't exist at the dawn of the GUI. Typing \ rather than pressing the return key to evaluate expressions on the REPL, for example.
- DanielIngalls 6y ago
  Yes, that's certainly confusing. I'd like to be able to offer a popup keyboard that makes it all clear. The Alto had line-feed at the top-right, and we used LF for our do-it character. "\" is in the upper-right and not otherwise used in St-72 so i chose it. I'll work on some better visible support. Thanks!
DanielIngalls 6y ago
The Zoo is in its infancy. I hope to add a bunch of things, fix a bunch of things, and explain everything better. I appreciate all comments and suggestions, and will do my best to respond. - Dan
- dang 6y ago
  Please do! and if you reach a point in the future where you feel like it's ready for another public discussion, we'd be delighted to support that—emailing hn@ycombinator.com is the best way to let us know. This stuff is eternally cool as far as we're concerned. (Edit: the parent was originally a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25755267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25755267 but that's kind of buried lower down, so I detached it.)
  - gjvc 6y ago
    "This stuff is eternally cool as far as we're concerned" :-)
travisgriggs 6y ago
Goes into never ending radial 5 loading for me, both Safari and Brave on an iPhone. :( HN Hug of Death? Or browser comparability? Anyone know? Dan Ingalls is one of my heroes. I got to spend a day with a small group including him in Argentina after a conference a few years ago. One of the nicest and most gracious individuals I have met. The worst thing about Smalltalk is if you really got into it, you spend the rest of your programming career asking "why? Why did these other systems have to make this so hard?"
- skissane 6y ago
  > HN Hug of Death? Or browser comparability? Anyone know? I think it is a browser compatibility issue. Chrome on macOS works fine for me. But Safari on my iPhone, same symptoms as you are having, and then eventually the screen fills up with errors like "Lively system startup aborted because a critical error occurred:"
scroot 6y ago
It doesn't seem to be directly linked from the front page, but the zoo also contains the issues of SqueakNews, an e-zine published in Squeak in the early 2000s. There is a web player for them, too: https://smalltalkzoo.computerhistory.org/SqueakNews/index.html https://smalltalkzoo.computerhistory.org/SqueakNews/index.ht...

78 points by gjvc 6y ago

It has always fascinated me that Smalltalk nearly universally comes with a window system and self-editing run-time. I remember Sun's "Lively Kernel" project. It looks like this has some of that DNA in it. I can't claim to have ever bent my brain to quite grok Smalltalk-and-attendant-tools, but I definitely appreciate its contribution to our software heritage and see traces of it all around, especially in the NeXT/Apple ecosystem.

gjvc 6y ago
This is very much powered by the lively kernel. Dan H. H. Ingalls, the main programmer of Smalltalk-72, created The Lively Kernel and the Smalltalk Zoo site. It's great to see him continue his work. I think that Lively Kernel has huge potential to influence the current web. When you consider something like how this site (HN) operates, and could be implemented using something like the LK, perhaps we can start programming interactive systems better than we do. Note that the Lively Kernel dates from 2007 (!) -- development continues to be supported by the Hasso-Plattner institute in Potsdam, Germany. https://lively-next.org/ https://lively-next.org/
- hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
  What is the exclamation point for? Is 2007 old?
igouy 6y ago
"Dan Ingalls on the History of Smalltalk and the Lively Kernel" https://www.infoq.com/interviews/ingalls-smalltalk/ https://www.infoq.com/interviews/ingalls-smalltalk/
fctorial 6y ago
So does javascript. It's just that js is too mainstream, and a lot more practical.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- remexre 6y ago
  I've never seen Smalltalk-style self-editing in a JavaScript framework; is there a specific one you're referring to? Or just the fact that it has eval()?
  - fctorial 6y ago
    You can edit html in devtools. You can also edit and save js files in devtools source tab and changes will be immediately visible. I think browser exposes apis for reloading as well, which is what framework devtools use (not sure about that one) so you don't have to use the browser for development. Does smalltalk provide anything over and above that?
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      So much more over and above that.
    - ljm 6y ago
      You're describing an editor combined with a debugger. JS isn't your chrome inspector. You can't really do a like-for-like comparison. I encourage you to check out Pharo or Squeak, and at least do the intro tutorial, to see the difference for yourself. That's not to be elitist, it's just really worth trying out.
      - mumblemumble 6y ago
        Or, perhaps even easier, check out one of these online Smalltalks in Smalltalk Zoo.

fniephaus 6y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25461760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25461760

dang 6y ago
Normally that would make us mark this one as a dupe, but the posts are subtly different enough, and the material so interesting, that maybe we can leave this one up. Hopefully people will investigate the actual contents of said zoo and comment on those, rather than just generically about Smalltalk.

mumblemumble 6y ago

The Smalltalk-72 emulator is particularly fascinating. Both to be seeing what they had accomplished 48 years ago, and to think that they've got a decent emulation of it running in the browser. Haven't actually made it very far in, just due to learning curve. So many UI conventions that we take for granted nowadays but that didn't exist at the dawn of the GUI. Typing \ rather than pressing the return key to evaluate expressions on the REPL, for example.

DanielIngalls 6y ago
Yes, that's certainly confusing. I'd like to be able to offer a popup keyboard that makes it all clear. The Alto had line-feed at the top-right, and we used LF for our do-it character. "\" is in the upper-right and not otherwise used in St-72 so i chose it. I'll work on some better visible support. Thanks!

DanielIngalls 6y ago

The Zoo is in its infancy. I hope to add a bunch of things, fix a bunch of things, and explain everything better. I appreciate all comments and suggestions, and will do my best to respond. - Dan

dang 6y ago
Please do! and if you reach a point in the future where you feel like it's ready for another public discussion, we'd be delighted to support that—emailing hn@ycombinator.com is the best way to let us know. This stuff is eternally cool as far as we're concerned. (Edit: the parent was originally a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25755267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25755267 but that's kind of buried lower down, so I detached it.)
- gjvc 6y ago
  "This stuff is eternally cool as far as we're concerned" :-)

travisgriggs 6y ago

Goes into never ending radial 5 loading for me, both Safari and Brave on an iPhone. :( HN Hug of Death? Or browser comparability? Anyone know? Dan Ingalls is one of my heroes. I got to spend a day with a small group including him in Argentina after a conference a few years ago. One of the nicest and most gracious individuals I have met. The worst thing about Smalltalk is if you really got into it, you spend the rest of your programming career asking "why? Why did these other systems have to make this so hard?"

skissane 6y ago
> HN Hug of Death? Or browser comparability? Anyone know? I think it is a browser compatibility issue. Chrome on macOS works fine for me. But Safari on my iPhone, same symptoms as you are having, and then eventually the screen fills up with errors like "Lively system startup aborted because a critical error occurred:"

scroot 6y ago

It doesn't seem to be directly linked from the front page, but the zoo also contains the issues of SqueakNews, an e-zine published in Squeak in the early 2000s. There is a web player for them, too: https://smalltalkzoo.computerhistory.org/SqueakNews/index.html https://smalltalkzoo.computerhistory.org/SqueakNews/index.ht...