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We have made computer science so complicated for ourselves. It may be evolution I guess. On one hand (1) we have people who write OS, compilers etc., On the ot

We have made computer science so complicated for ourselves. It may be evolution I guess. On one hand (1) we have people who write OS, compilers etc., On the other (2) we have folks use them and build applications for businesses. The school teaches us for (1). We learn (2) ourselves at work. I wish schools taught us for (2) as well along with all the necessary soft skills to deal with.

AltF4me 6y ago
I think this is where coding bootcamps are winning...
u678u 6y ago
Yeah I think CS is for (1) though and the groups for (2) can do a business IT degree or something like that in a different dept.
- udp 6y ago
  I think it is a bit reductionist to say (2) can "do a business IT degree or something". Taught CS today - at least at UK universities - is a mix of discrete mathematics, electrical engineering, and software engineering. I think it comes down to the age old debate as to whether a degree is supposed to prepare a student to roll into an industry job or whether it is supposed to be an introduction to academia. An academic purist might argue that these should all be separate degrees because they are different intellectual pursuits, while a company would likely much prefer to take on a graduate with some understanding of all of the above.
huhnmonster 6y ago
In Germany, we have two different institutions: Universities (identical to US university I guess) and something called Fachhochschule (I don't know if there even is a correct translation for that, lets call it FH). University is focused on covering the theoretical aspect of computers with a lesser focus on practical applications - although they are thought to some extent - while FH is more focused on building applications and real-life systems with a smaller focus on theoretical aspects. The only problem is that FH has long been considered second class and everyone wants to attend university. but in my opinion and based on my experience, many people would be a better fit for FH. For someone deciding whether to attend Uni or FH, it is often not easy because you cannot guess what you are going to do in your work-life and whether you might enjoy research or you would rather go into industry directly. Aside from that though, I think it is great that we have different institutions for different audiences with differing goals. Does something like that exist in the United States or somewhere else in the world?
- irrational 6y ago
  Well, the equivalent for Fachhochschule in the United States are called Trade Schools. But trade schools typically teach things like Aircraft mechanic, train engineer, welding, etc. While I'm sure there are some trade schools that teach programming, typically you would go to a more dedicated place like a coding bootcamp. Often universities will have separate computer science and software engineering degrees. The first is more academically oriented (for those who want to get a PhD in computer science) and the other for people who want a job as a developer.
  - dakna 6y ago
    > the equivalent for Fachhochschule in the United States are called Trade Schools This is not true. Students can get accredited Master's degrees at a University of Applied Science. Some of the Universities even do research. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fachhochschule https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fachhochschule I'm not aware of any trade school in the US where students can get higher credentials than a certificate or associates degree.
    - koube 6y ago
      I think a better analogy in the US would be universities with an academic focus vs universities with a practical focus. It's not a codified difference and the degrees you get are the same, but it exists somewhat informally. As an example, in San Diego, the two top universities are UCSD and SDSU. UCSD is much more prestigious but SDSU teaches more practical skills, for example while SDSU biology students have 3 years of laboratory experience, UCSD students will have 2/3rds of one year of laboratory experience. Actually labs will not even consider UCSD students when hiring because they have so little practical knowledge. UCSD students are expected to go on to get professional degrees or higher academic degrees. In general, in California, "University of California" schools are known to be academic while "California State Universities" are known to be practical. This was somewhat codified in the California Master Plan for Higher Education, where the top eighth of students would go to the UC schools and the top third would go to CSU schools[0]. I don't know if other states are the same. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Higher_Education#Purpose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Hig...
tshaddox 6y ago
Hmm, in my view writing operating systems and compilers is also pretty far on the side of "applied CS" right around building websites and smartphone apps. But this doesn't strike me as a problem unless people are really confused and choosing CS programs in order to get experience building websites. From what I saw when I was in college a decade ago, even most of the smaller schools were starting to have special "Software Engineering" tracts since they recognized the growing popularity (or at least prestige) of programming jobs. I chose CS because I was fascinated with the actual science and math, and I wouldn't recommend anyone with the same fascination to skip theory courses.
whateveracct 6y ago
a good CS program teaches you that everything is exactly the same
mhh__ 6y ago
Keep in mind that it's almost impossible to teach everyone everything. The people who write compilers still have to learn a lot on the job because writing a good compiler is a lot harder than writing a basic one. It's turtles all the way down. Ultimately I think teaching you how to write a compiler will put you in much better stead than teaching you just how to use one.
pishpash 6y ago
Some schools distinguish between computer science and computer engineering.
wheresmycraisin 6y ago
(1) safely gets you to a $200k salary, though. (2) is much more risky to practice.

AltF4me 6y ago

I think this is where coding bootcamps are winning...

u678u 6y ago

Yeah I think CS is for (1) though and the groups for (2) can do a business IT degree or something like that in a different dept.

udp 6y ago
I think it is a bit reductionist to say (2) can "do a business IT degree or something". Taught CS today - at least at UK universities - is a mix of discrete mathematics, electrical engineering, and software engineering. I think it comes down to the age old debate as to whether a degree is supposed to prepare a student to roll into an industry job or whether it is supposed to be an introduction to academia. An academic purist might argue that these should all be separate degrees because they are different intellectual pursuits, while a company would likely much prefer to take on a graduate with some understanding of all of the above.

huhnmonster 6y ago

In Germany, we have two different institutions: Universities (identical to US university I guess) and something called Fachhochschule (I don't know if there even is a correct translation for that, lets call it FH). University is focused on covering the theoretical aspect of computers with a lesser focus on practical applications - although they are thought to some extent - while FH is more focused on building applications and real-life systems with a smaller focus on theoretical aspects. The only problem is that FH has long been considered second class and everyone wants to attend university. but in my opinion and based on my experience, many people would be a better fit for FH. For someone deciding whether to attend Uni or FH, it is often not easy because you cannot guess what you are going to do in your work-life and whether you might enjoy research or you would rather go into industry directly. Aside from that though, I think it is great that we have different institutions for different audiences with differing goals. Does something like that exist in the United States or somewhere else in the world?

irrational 6y ago
Well, the equivalent for Fachhochschule in the United States are called Trade Schools. But trade schools typically teach things like Aircraft mechanic, train engineer, welding, etc. While I'm sure there are some trade schools that teach programming, typically you would go to a more dedicated place like a coding bootcamp. Often universities will have separate computer science and software engineering degrees. The first is more academically oriented (for those who want to get a PhD in computer science) and the other for people who want a job as a developer.
- dakna 6y ago
  > the equivalent for Fachhochschule in the United States are called Trade Schools This is not true. Students can get accredited Master's degrees at a University of Applied Science. Some of the Universities even do research. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fachhochschule https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fachhochschule I'm not aware of any trade school in the US where students can get higher credentials than a certificate or associates degree.
  - koube 6y ago
    I think a better analogy in the US would be universities with an academic focus vs universities with a practical focus. It's not a codified difference and the degrees you get are the same, but it exists somewhat informally. As an example, in San Diego, the two top universities are UCSD and SDSU. UCSD is much more prestigious but SDSU teaches more practical skills, for example while SDSU biology students have 3 years of laboratory experience, UCSD students will have 2/3rds of one year of laboratory experience. Actually labs will not even consider UCSD students when hiring because they have so little practical knowledge. UCSD students are expected to go on to get professional degrees or higher academic degrees. In general, in California, "University of California" schools are known to be academic while "California State Universities" are known to be practical. This was somewhat codified in the California Master Plan for Higher Education, where the top eighth of students would go to the UC schools and the top third would go to CSU schools[0]. I don't know if other states are the same. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Higher_Education#Purpose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Hig...

tshaddox 6y ago

Hmm, in my view writing operating systems and compilers is also pretty far on the side of "applied CS" right around building websites and smartphone apps. But this doesn't strike me as a problem unless people are really confused and choosing CS programs in order to get experience building websites. From what I saw when I was in college a decade ago, even most of the smaller schools were starting to have special "Software Engineering" tracts since they recognized the growing popularity (or at least prestige) of programming jobs. I chose CS because I was fascinated with the actual science and math, and I wouldn't recommend anyone with the same fascination to skip theory courses.

whateveracct 6y ago

a good CS program teaches you that everything is exactly the same

mhh__ 6y ago

Keep in mind that it's almost impossible to teach everyone everything. The people who write compilers still have to learn a lot on the job because writing a good compiler is a lot harder than writing a basic one. It's turtles all the way down. Ultimately I think teaching you how to write a compiler will put you in much better stead than teaching you just how to use one.

pishpash 6y ago

Some schools distinguish between computer science and computer engineering.

wheresmycraisin 6y ago

(1) safely gets you to a $200k salary, though. (2) is much more risky to practice.