5 ms·

The sad thing is that this is exactly how the right sees the actions of the left. and it's even worse, as they (the left) are now winning. Their eyes are not bl

by loxs 6y ago

The sad thing is that this is exactly how the right sees the actions of the left. and it's even worse, as they (the left) are now winning. Their eyes are not blinking - they don't care about freedom of speech or fair game. In the long run, both sides start to see this modus operandi as completely normal. Censorship and vengeance to the other side are completely acceptable. As a libertarian, I am utterly horrified.

j_walter 6y ago
This. We don't have civil discourse anymore...people just yell and call people names. You don't like what the other person says they are a "libtard"...or a "racist". You don't like what they are doing online, get them kicked off or dox them to your friends. Justify online bullying like it's a sport. Now it's escalated to not just banning them from social media...but a coordinated effort to destroy the alternative platform they had.
- readflaggedcomm 6y ago
  When did speaking truth to power become "bullying"? And anyway, removing those who spew violent rhetoric is how civility is restored. The fact that the response to Twitter bans is so violent proves somebody needed to be silenced.
  - ttt0 6y ago
    When every corporation agrees with you and amplifies your message, can you really call that "speaking truth to power"?
  - bzbarsky 6y ago
    > When did speaking truth to power become "bullying"? It _can_ become bulling when people will arbitrarily claim that the victim of the bullying is the one who "had power" while the mob that got them fired, say, was just "speaking truth". Which maybe they were and maybe they were not. Not every incident of a bunch of people attacking someone on social media is "bullying", but neither is every incident of such "speaking truth to power", but a lot of the incidents of the former sure do try to pretend to be the latter. I suspect that you're thinking of a specific set of incidents and that j_walter is thinking of a quite different set of incidents, for what it's worth.
grahamburger 6y ago
What is the proper libertarian response to current events? Asking in good faith, honestly curious. To be fair, I'm curious about what the response would be to BLM riots+politician involvement, MAGA riots+president involvement, and big tech censorship in response.
- loxs 6y ago
  - Corporations have the right to censor whatever they want. But that's not moral (what they are doing currently). We should abandon these instances and find better ways to communicate - less centralized. - Store owners (and property owners in general) should be able to defend their property with firepower (or pay for such services) freely, without fear of repercussions. This stands both against BLM and MAGA. Of course, this luxury is not allowed in the current world. So we have to find find better ways - don't stand in the way of a moving train, but find ways to survive and prosper no matter. We move to greener pastures, find jobs that are better paying with less risks, learn to be adaptive and prepared. For me personally, this means that I did not move to the USA when I had the chance. I prefer not to work for US companies (especially the SV commie bunch), I don't travel to the USA any more. And I try to be vigilant with regards to the dangers that come from there (and will inevitably become worse, at least in the near future).
  - grahamburger 6y ago
    Thank you for the thoughtful response. I mostly agree - we can criticize corporations for their current actions from a moral perspective but not a legal one. To your second point - isn't the U.S. one of the only developed countries where you kind of can do this? I regularly see armed guards in front of private businesses, from Walmarts in the middle of nowhere to dispensaries in downtown SF. (FWIW I think calling SV tech 'commies' is off the mark - Marx would find little in common with the SV tech industry, I think.)
    - loxs 6y ago
      Yeah, the US is better than many countries with regards of laws that allow you to stand your ground. That's exactly the reason that made me consider moving there. Not any more :-(. I might have overplayed the 'commie' part a little. Still what I see there is quite in line with the practices of the former Eastern Block - I am from Bulgaria and I had "the chance" to live in a communist society until I was 8. The witch hunting is copied basically 1:1, and also the "witch profile" is surprisingly the same - evil capitalist "pigs", presumably white and presumably racist/nazi.
ndiscussion 6y ago
I used to be a libertarian until I realized my ideals would lead to my own party's censorship and demise. This meme sums it up: https://imgur.com/a/DZJoWKa https://imgur.com/a/DZJoWKa
- grahamburger 6y ago
  Yes this is mostly my feeling to. A central part of libertarianism seems to be insisting the governments give up power, which is all well and good until someone worse steps in to pick it up.
  - loxs 6y ago
    Until you realize that big government is what keeps monopolies in place and what forces them to act politically.

by loxs 6y ago

j_walter 6y ago

This. We don't have civil discourse anymore...people just yell and call people names. You don't like what the other person says they are a "libtard"...or a "racist". You don't like what they are doing online, get them kicked off or dox them to your friends. Justify online bullying like it's a sport. Now it's escalated to not just banning them from social media...but a coordinated effort to destroy the alternative platform they had.

readflaggedcomm 6y ago
When did speaking truth to power become "bullying"? And anyway, removing those who spew violent rhetoric is how civility is restored. The fact that the response to Twitter bans is so violent proves somebody needed to be silenced.
- ttt0 6y ago
  When every corporation agrees with you and amplifies your message, can you really call that "speaking truth to power"?
- bzbarsky 6y ago
  > When did speaking truth to power become "bullying"? It _can_ become bulling when people will arbitrarily claim that the victim of the bullying is the one who "had power" while the mob that got them fired, say, was just "speaking truth". Which maybe they were and maybe they were not. Not every incident of a bunch of people attacking someone on social media is "bullying", but neither is every incident of such "speaking truth to power", but a lot of the incidents of the former sure do try to pretend to be the latter. I suspect that you're thinking of a specific set of incidents and that j_walter is thinking of a quite different set of incidents, for what it's worth.

grahamburger 6y ago

What is the proper libertarian response to current events? Asking in good faith, honestly curious. To be fair, I'm curious about what the response would be to BLM riots+politician involvement, MAGA riots+president involvement, and big tech censorship in response.

loxs 6y ago
- Corporations have the right to censor whatever they want. But that's not moral (what they are doing currently). We should abandon these instances and find better ways to communicate - less centralized. - Store owners (and property owners in general) should be able to defend their property with firepower (or pay for such services) freely, without fear of repercussions. This stands both against BLM and MAGA. Of course, this luxury is not allowed in the current world. So we have to find find better ways - don't stand in the way of a moving train, but find ways to survive and prosper no matter. We move to greener pastures, find jobs that are better paying with less risks, learn to be adaptive and prepared. For me personally, this means that I did not move to the USA when I had the chance. I prefer not to work for US companies (especially the SV commie bunch), I don't travel to the USA any more. And I try to be vigilant with regards to the dangers that come from there (and will inevitably become worse, at least in the near future).
- grahamburger 6y ago
  Thank you for the thoughtful response. I mostly agree - we can criticize corporations for their current actions from a moral perspective but not a legal one. To your second point - isn't the U.S. one of the only developed countries where you kind of can do this? I regularly see armed guards in front of private businesses, from Walmarts in the middle of nowhere to dispensaries in downtown SF. (FWIW I think calling SV tech 'commies' is off the mark - Marx would find little in common with the SV tech industry, I think.)
  - loxs 6y ago
    Yeah, the US is better than many countries with regards of laws that allow you to stand your ground. That's exactly the reason that made me consider moving there. Not any more :-(. I might have overplayed the 'commie' part a little. Still what I see there is quite in line with the practices of the former Eastern Block - I am from Bulgaria and I had "the chance" to live in a communist society until I was 8. The witch hunting is copied basically 1:1, and also the "witch profile" is surprisingly the same - evil capitalist "pigs", presumably white and presumably racist/nazi.

ndiscussion 6y ago

I used to be a libertarian until I realized my ideals would lead to my own party's censorship and demise. This meme sums it up: https://imgur.com/a/DZJoWKa https://imgur.com/a/DZJoWKa

grahamburger 6y ago
Yes this is mostly my feeling to. A central part of libertarianism seems to be insisting the governments give up power, which is all well and good until someone worse steps in to pick it up.
- loxs 6y ago
  Until you realize that big government is what keeps monopolies in place and what forces them to act politically.