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Except tech companies pay almost 0 taxes in Eu, while wines etc. were already @ 14%, raised @ 25 %. Also tech companies have no competition in the EU, while win

Except tech companies pay almost 0 taxes in Eu, while wines etc. were already @ 14%, raised @ 25 %. Also tech companies have no competition in the EU, while wines and planes have competition in the US.

snarf21 6y ago
It is retaliation against GDPR and tax lawsuits
SllX 6y ago
Trade wars aren’t about fairness, they’re about leverage. Fairness would be no tariffs at all and no taxes that effectively act as tariffs because there’s no comparable domestic competition. Life isn’t fair though.
- ouid 6y ago
  I don't know about no tariffs beig the fairest model. One reasonable thing to impose tariffs on is products made with slave labor, or labor paid at less than the minimum wage in your own country. The benefits are twofold, disincentivizing slave labor in other countries, and incentivizing local supply.
  - SllX 6y ago
    No, I mean in fairness, no tariffs is about as fair as it gets as far as trade goes. There are good reasons to impose tariffs otherwise. Slavery is a good reason, and the counterparty-country being a communist dictatorship is another good reason. You want to start a list?
    - InitialLastName 6y ago
      More generally, I think you could call tariffs "fair" that seek to keep companies in your market from being punished by compliance with the regulatory environment. In an increasingly "liquid" global trade market, tariffs can let you regulate businesses in your country to a higher (read: more expensive) standard (be it to protect labor, the environment, consumers, shareholders or IP) while protecting the compliant business (and industry as a whole) from being undercut by competitors in countries that don't have those protections. If effective, there can be a second order effect that pressures other countries to raise their standards as well.
      - SllX 6y ago
        Nah, I think that’s conflating fairness to the business environment with fairness in trade. The fairest trade is where two people walk away after an exchange with both people feeling like they made out well in that exchange. Tariffs are a form of state interference in these exchanges because to import my fancy cheese, I have to pay more than the fair market value and shipping costs, I have to pay for a tariff as well. I just want my fancy cheese to go with my domestic wine, I don’t want to pay more than I have to for it. Now if the tariffs on both sides of the metaphorical pond sum out to zero so that imports on both sides paid about the same in tariffs, that’s fair, but that’s rare. Tariffs aren’t about fairness though. Now if you want to impose tariffs to be fair to the businesses operating in your regulatory environment, well that’s fair, but that’s a different type of fairness obliging a different set of entities. To be clear, I’m not anti-tariff. My priorities might be different, and all other things being equal I prefer no tariffs to tariffs by default, but let’s not pretend they’re intended to make trade fairer. They’re revenue first, retribution second (these last two may have flipped in the 20th century, but that’s a separate argument to have), and all other effects are tertiary.
    - ouid 6y ago
      It is an unfair requirement that goods produced in your state be made with fairly compensated labor, if there is no similar requirement on goods consumed in your state.
      - SllX 6y ago
        So drop the compensation minimums or put up a political tariff until the compensation minimums in the counter-party-country match yours (if that’s how it ends). Those are your two outs. Tariffs raise revenue and serve political ends, which can be protectionist in nature or serve some other purpose. That’s fine, as long as we recognize that we’re using them for political ends. The fairest trade of them all is going to be between two people that can make an exchange without state interference and without feeling like the other person got more than they did, and tariffs interfere with that type of exchange.
        ouid 6y ago
        >The fairest trade of them all is going to be between two people that can make an exchange without state interference and without feeling like the other person got more than they did, and tariffs interfere with that type of exchange. Why does your definition of fairness include a clause about state interference? I don't think you can argue in good faith about whether or not governments can act to increase fairness if your definition of fairness excludes government action. Trade will occur at any price between the value to the consumer and the cost to the producer. In a perfectly competitive market, the agreed upon price approaches the cost to the producer, and it will necessarily be the case that the consumer got more from it. Is that fair? This is going to sound condescending, and I'm sorry about that, but you should consider adopting a principled set of economic beliefs rather than one based exclusively on your politics.
        SllX 6y ago
        Trade won’t occur if the costs incurred from government or State action increase the price to a level I am unwilling to pay, or else get me to reconsider a producer or service provider that doesn’t incur these additional costs. State interference isn’t a non-factor you can dismiss out of hand, honestly it probably is present in most transactions, but tariffs introduce an additional cost that specifically targets foreign producers and providers. > This is going to sound condescending, and I'm sorry about that, but you should consider adopting a principled set of economic beliefs rather than one based exclusively on your politics. I appreciate the consideration and that is good advice. If I had more time I would go back and re-read what I said to see if there’s anywhere my politics and economics appear to be blending together because I do actually try to keep those separate. Primarily what I’m arguing here, or intending to be arguing are terms from a mostly neutral perspective, it’s still my perspective, so not entirely neutral. With all due respect I enjoy reading discussions where people are agreed upon on what they are discussing, and tariffs are one of those discussions where words like “fair” get thrown around in several different directions, and inherently they are not fair and not intended to be fair. They serve a purpose, a revenue generating political purpose, maybe even several political purposes, and when words like “fair” get thrown around in such a manner, it really ruins the discussion because it’s not a discussion: it’s a tactical game of obfuscation played by whoever influenced the participants views most strongly. So let me quote myself from a different comment chain. Perhaps you will still perceive my economics and politics to continue bleeding together; I think any considerations of economic policy are going to have some level of politics in then considering what is being discussed is a form of policy, but I haven’t put forward any explicit policies today. > To be clear, I’m not anti-tariff. My priorities might be different, and all other things being equal I prefer no tariffs to tariffs by default, but let’s not pretend they’re intended to make trade fairer. They’re revenue first, retribution second (these last two may have flipped in the 20th century, but that’s a separate argument to have), and all other effects are tertiary.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      How about forced labor for inmates?
      - SllX 6y ago
        Add it to the list, but I think that’s encompassed in “slavery”.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    But this is more of an issue of human rights than trade parity between nations. No tariff is the simplest ground case for discussing different parities.
    - ouid 6y ago
      Any artificial restrictions on trade that we impose domestically, like minimum wage, or occupational health and safety requirements, are meaningless if we have no way of placing those restrictions elsewhere. I would argue exactly the opposite of what you have said, that tariffs are the natural way of expressing these restrictions internationally.
  - Jochim 6y ago
    > One reasonable thing to impose tariffs on is products made with slave labor, Surely products made with slave labour should be banned outright?
rory 6y ago
To elaborate on what others have said re: retaliation, EU tariffs on goods are generally higher than those of the USA[0], so if anything this will just close the gap and make total tariffs paid more even. The USA in general has the lowest import tariffs on goods of all major countries (even after all the Trump escalations). It also has a large goods import gap (importing much more than it exports). It makes up a lot of that gap in services, so when France passed a tax specifically targeting its most important "service" companies (internet giants), it sees that as a HUGE trade escalation, even though that absolute tax those companies pay in Europe was previously laughably small in absolute terms. One could argue that despite all the headline drama, evening US-EU goods tariffs and making US tech companies pay taxes in Europe lands on a more equitable arrangement, rather than de facto subsidizing EU agriculture and US tech. [0]It's hard to find intuitively meaningful numbers for this stuff since it's so complicated, but you can see that the EU "general goods" tariff has a mean average of 5.1% vs 3.4% for the USA here: https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles20_e.pdf https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles20...
daemin 6y ago
I guess that means good news for Australian wine producers, since they can move the inventory designated for China to the USA as there should be some more demand for it.
fuoqi 6y ago
It's funny to hear about "fairness" from EU, when it also tries to weasel out of tariff agreements with so called "anti-dumping measures" [0] and, after that attempt has failed, now it tries to do the same with "carbon tax" [1]. The latter is sold to public as a care about climate change, but as argued by many in reality it's simply a new form of tariff in the ongoing world trade war to offset serious inefficiencies brought by wide adoption of solar and wind energy with simultaneous drastic reduction of nuclear capacity. [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-eu-russia-idUSKCN24P1VO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-eu-russia-idUSK... [1]: https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news20_e/good_11jun20_e.htm https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news20_e/good_11jun20_e.h...
- gridder 6y ago
  It was a reality check, not looking for fairness, you cannot compare apple to oranges. In that case I would have spoken about the Italians, who do not produce any plane, nor tax any big tech, but their wines and cheeses are fu*ed no matter what. Also the US consumers should not be happy to pay more for good quality food. Regarding your points you’re probably right, but I hope that without trump, the rest of the world will kind of revert back to more fairness.

snarf21 6y ago

It is retaliation against GDPR and tax lawsuits

SllX 6y ago

Trade wars aren’t about fairness, they’re about leverage. Fairness would be no tariffs at all and no taxes that effectively act as tariffs because there’s no comparable domestic competition. Life isn’t fair though.

ouid 6y ago
I don't know about no tariffs beig the fairest model. One reasonable thing to impose tariffs on is products made with slave labor, or labor paid at less than the minimum wage in your own country. The benefits are twofold, disincentivizing slave labor in other countries, and incentivizing local supply.
- SllX 6y ago
  No, I mean in fairness, no tariffs is about as fair as it gets as far as trade goes. There are good reasons to impose tariffs otherwise. Slavery is a good reason, and the counterparty-country being a communist dictatorship is another good reason. You want to start a list?
  - InitialLastName 6y ago
    More generally, I think you could call tariffs "fair" that seek to keep companies in your market from being punished by compliance with the regulatory environment. In an increasingly "liquid" global trade market, tariffs can let you regulate businesses in your country to a higher (read: more expensive) standard (be it to protect labor, the environment, consumers, shareholders or IP) while protecting the compliant business (and industry as a whole) from being undercut by competitors in countries that don't have those protections. If effective, there can be a second order effect that pressures other countries to raise their standards as well.
    - SllX 6y ago
      Nah, I think that’s conflating fairness to the business environment with fairness in trade. The fairest trade is where two people walk away after an exchange with both people feeling like they made out well in that exchange. Tariffs are a form of state interference in these exchanges because to import my fancy cheese, I have to pay more than the fair market value and shipping costs, I have to pay for a tariff as well. I just want my fancy cheese to go with my domestic wine, I don’t want to pay more than I have to for it. Now if the tariffs on both sides of the metaphorical pond sum out to zero so that imports on both sides paid about the same in tariffs, that’s fair, but that’s rare. Tariffs aren’t about fairness though. Now if you want to impose tariffs to be fair to the businesses operating in your regulatory environment, well that’s fair, but that’s a different type of fairness obliging a different set of entities. To be clear, I’m not anti-tariff. My priorities might be different, and all other things being equal I prefer no tariffs to tariffs by default, but let’s not pretend they’re intended to make trade fairer. They’re revenue first, retribution second (these last two may have flipped in the 20th century, but that’s a separate argument to have), and all other effects are tertiary.
  - ouid 6y ago
    It is an unfair requirement that goods produced in your state be made with fairly compensated labor, if there is no similar requirement on goods consumed in your state.
    - SllX 6y ago
      So drop the compensation minimums or put up a political tariff until the compensation minimums in the counter-party-country match yours (if that’s how it ends). Those are your two outs. Tariffs raise revenue and serve political ends, which can be protectionist in nature or serve some other purpose. That’s fine, as long as we recognize that we’re using them for political ends. The fairest trade of them all is going to be between two people that can make an exchange without state interference and without feeling like the other person got more than they did, and tariffs interfere with that type of exchange.
      - ouid 6y ago
        >The fairest trade of them all is going to be between two people that can make an exchange without state interference and without feeling like the other person got more than they did, and tariffs interfere with that type of exchange. Why does your definition of fairness include a clause about state interference? I don't think you can argue in good faith about whether or not governments can act to increase fairness if your definition of fairness excludes government action. Trade will occur at any price between the value to the consumer and the cost to the producer. In a perfectly competitive market, the agreed upon price approaches the cost to the producer, and it will necessarily be the case that the consumer got more from it. Is that fair? This is going to sound condescending, and I'm sorry about that, but you should consider adopting a principled set of economic beliefs rather than one based exclusively on your politics.
        SllX 6y ago
        Trade won’t occur if the costs incurred from government or State action increase the price to a level I am unwilling to pay, or else get me to reconsider a producer or service provider that doesn’t incur these additional costs. State interference isn’t a non-factor you can dismiss out of hand, honestly it probably is present in most transactions, but tariffs introduce an additional cost that specifically targets foreign producers and providers. > This is going to sound condescending, and I'm sorry about that, but you should consider adopting a principled set of economic beliefs rather than one based exclusively on your politics. I appreciate the consideration and that is good advice. If I had more time I would go back and re-read what I said to see if there’s anywhere my politics and economics appear to be blending together because I do actually try to keep those separate. Primarily what I’m arguing here, or intending to be arguing are terms from a mostly neutral perspective, it’s still my perspective, so not entirely neutral. With all due respect I enjoy reading discussions where people are agreed upon on what they are discussing, and tariffs are one of those discussions where words like “fair” get thrown around in several different directions, and inherently they are not fair and not intended to be fair. They serve a purpose, a revenue generating political purpose, maybe even several political purposes, and when words like “fair” get thrown around in such a manner, it really ruins the discussion because it’s not a discussion: it’s a tactical game of obfuscation played by whoever influenced the participants views most strongly. So let me quote myself from a different comment chain. Perhaps you will still perceive my economics and politics to continue bleeding together; I think any considerations of economic policy are going to have some level of politics in then considering what is being discussed is a form of policy, but I haven’t put forward any explicit policies today. > To be clear, I’m not anti-tariff. My priorities might be different, and all other things being equal I prefer no tariffs to tariffs by default, but let’s not pretend they’re intended to make trade fairer. They’re revenue first, retribution second (these last two may have flipped in the 20th century, but that’s a separate argument to have), and all other effects are tertiary.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    How about forced labor for inmates?
    - SllX 6y ago
      Add it to the list, but I think that’s encompassed in “slavery”.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  But this is more of an issue of human rights than trade parity between nations. No tariff is the simplest ground case for discussing different parities.
  - ouid 6y ago
    Any artificial restrictions on trade that we impose domestically, like minimum wage, or occupational health and safety requirements, are meaningless if we have no way of placing those restrictions elsewhere. I would argue exactly the opposite of what you have said, that tariffs are the natural way of expressing these restrictions internationally.
- Jochim 6y ago
  > One reasonable thing to impose tariffs on is products made with slave labor, Surely products made with slave labour should be banned outright?

rory 6y ago

To elaborate on what others have said re: retaliation, EU tariffs on goods are generally higher than those of the USA[0], so if anything this will just close the gap and make total tariffs paid more even. The USA in general has the lowest import tariffs on goods of all major countries (even after all the Trump escalations). It also has a large goods import gap (importing much more than it exports). It makes up a lot of that gap in services, so when France passed a tax specifically targeting its most important "service" companies (internet giants), it sees that as a HUGE trade escalation, even though that absolute tax those companies pay in Europe was previously laughably small in absolute terms. One could argue that despite all the headline drama, evening US-EU goods tariffs and making US tech companies pay taxes in Europe lands on a more equitable arrangement, rather than de facto subsidizing EU agriculture and US tech. [0]It's hard to find intuitively meaningful numbers for this stuff since it's so complicated, but you can see that the EU "general goods" tariff has a mean average of 5.1% vs 3.4% for the USA here: https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles20_e.pdf https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles20...

daemin 6y ago

I guess that means good news for Australian wine producers, since they can move the inventory designated for China to the USA as there should be some more demand for it.

fuoqi 6y ago

It's funny to hear about "fairness" from EU, when it also tries to weasel out of tariff agreements with so called "anti-dumping measures" [0] and, after that attempt has failed, now it tries to do the same with "carbon tax" [1]. The latter is sold to public as a care about climate change, but as argued by many in reality it's simply a new form of tariff in the ongoing world trade war to offset serious inefficiencies brought by wide adoption of solar and wind energy with simultaneous drastic reduction of nuclear capacity. [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-eu-russia-idUSKCN24P1VO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-eu-russia-idUSK... [1]: https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news20_e/good_11jun20_e.htm https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news20_e/good_11jun20_e.h...

gridder 6y ago
It was a reality check, not looking for fairness, you cannot compare apple to oranges. In that case I would have spoken about the Italians, who do not produce any plane, nor tax any big tech, but their wines and cheeses are fu*ed no matter what. Also the US consumers should not be happy to pay more for good quality food. Regarding your points you’re probably right, but I hope that without trump, the rest of the world will kind of revert back to more fairness.