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Well a good start might be to address a lot of these concerns. Whether they want to or not, politicians and the ultra wealthy are going to have to get out of b

Well a good start might be to address a lot of these concerns. Whether they want to or not, politicians and the ultra wealthy are going to have to get out of bed together. The affair is over, if for no other reason then their own physical safety, then at least for their financial safety. If income inequality continues and there's less and less available jobs for working age men, those men will find something to occupy their time, and I promise you, it won't be selling wood carvings on Etsy. I cannot remember where I heard this, and I'm going to butcher the quote, but it went a little something like, "When you take away a man's ability to earn his way, you turn him into a revolutionary." I'm almost certain I got that wrong, but that's the gist of it. We need a huge jobs program and we need one now. An enormous infrastructure bill would be a good start to calming down a lot of this nonsense. Employed people with disposable income rarely want to upend the system. If we continue down this path, then the cold civil war that we're seeing waged mostly on the Internet, but occasionally out in the open, is going to turn into a hot one. And I guarantee you, if things escalate, you'll find Russia taking advantage of this by sending groups of their special operators to train these people, because no one in the world has more experience with urban warfare than Russia. And if you think that the American military is entirely unsympathetic to these people, you are starkly and dangerously wrong. EDIT: And yes, I've been hearing / reading / seeing references to the "boogaloo" for years now. It seems we might be facing it sooner, rather than later.

watwut 6y ago
> Employed people with disposable income rarely want to upend the system. The people who attacked Capitol were employed with disposable income.
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  Yeah but they weren’t trying to upend the current system, they were trying to perpetuate it.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    Are you kidding me? Donald Trump's election was a big "fuck you" to the system. They absolutely want to upend the system. The system isn't working for them, and they know it. If the system was working, wages wouldn't be stagnant for 50 years. Housing prices wouldn't have nearly quadrupled. College education prices wouldn't have nearly... you know what, I don't even know the correct modifier... gone up by 5000%. In 1971, CEO pay was at best 30-40 times the median salary of an employee at a company. If you made $10,000 a year, the CEO might make $300,000-400,000. The very best CEOs rarely made multi-millions. This is not a sustainable system. The problem is, these people don't really have the education to know how to attack the system to correctly dismantle it (in fact, it might not even be possible to dismantle it from a non-violent / institutional standpoint, but that's another conversation), so they instead riot and install Viking Pepe as their leader.
    - adamcstephens 6y ago
      I guess you’re getting downvoted for this one because you’re more explicitly blaming the system instead of the actors. I agree with you that until we fix the rot in the system that leaves so many in despair, unrest will continue to escalate.
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        People respond to incentives, incentives are created by systems, and systems aren't put into place by one single person. The "actors" that created many of the problems we suffer under are dead or dying - or quite simply, too rich and powerful to be easily or effectively held accountable. I think I'm being downvoted because most of us that post here on HN are either thoroughly entrenched in the system in some way, or we're elevated beyond these problems which mostly affect poorly educated lower class people. We have tons of FAANG employees that post here, tons of wealthy entrepreneurs, lots of startup founders, etc. None of us really have jack shit in common with poor disenfranchised people. But we better start making it a priority to look into, else I fear we're going to find ourselves in a very unenviable position.
    - watwut 6y ago
- neartheplain 6y ago
  Echoes of BLM protests in which most violent actors were white [0], i.e. not a member of the group in whose name they did violence. Could be many reasons for this. I’d speculate that no matter the political leaning, some fraction of people are always looking for excuses to be violent, and will readily deploy others’ grievances to this end. [0] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/arrest-records-show-most-protesters-are-local-not-affiliated-with-organized-groups/283-2f4d1db1-6cc3-4e57-8bd9-75b5534c058e https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/arrest-recor...
MattGaiser 6y ago
> there's less and less available jobs for working age men, those men will find something to occupy their time I am going through lists of Capitol stormers. I am finding cops, former firefighters, former officers, teachers, real estate agents, professors, lawyers, CEOS, etc. If anything, these people have some of the better jobs. I am sure there are unemployed people in there and there is selection bias, but it is hardly exclusive. Some articles of employed people: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-fallout/some-us-capitol-rioters-fired-after-internet-detectives-identify-them-idUSKBN29C36M https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-fal... https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-people-that-have-lost-their-jobs-after-participating-capitol-riots-1560058 https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-people-that-have-lost-thei...
- cbozeman 6y ago
  I think you're focusing on the storming of the Capitol itself and not the over-arching sentiment that even makes such an event possible. As a species, we're not exactly martyrs. Its the reason one man with a shotgun can hold 26 people hostage. At best, if every person bum rushed him, he might get 2-4 shots off. That's the absolute best case scenario. The logical thing to do is a coordinated attack, because then you ensure the safety of the group instead of your individual safety. So it goes with this. If hundreds of people were willing to storm the Capitol, its because hundreds of thousands - possibly even millions - have the same sentiment, but for whatever reason - distance, fear of reprisal, etc. - couldn't physically be there. I think that incident was 1) just the start of many more riots / clashes and 2) evidence of much larger, broader problem that we need to solve.
pjc50 6y ago
The "unemployed men" is a narrative, but the ringleaders of this stuff are comfortably employed or retired. Exhibit A: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/10/retired-air-force-lieutenant-colonel-arrested-charged-capitol-riot.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/10/retired-air-f... > And if you think that the American military is entirely unsympathetic to these people, you are starkly and dangerously wrong This is a serious problem. Either the incoming democrat administration lets it fester and be "protected" by people who will cheerfully discuss their murder, or they carry out what could accurately be described as an ideological "purge". > Russia They sent a spy to solicit the NRA, who was hugely successful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Butina#Involvement_in_U.S._politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Butina#Involvement_in_U....
- adamcstephens 6y ago
  Ringleaders will come and go, but that won’t stop the millions without hope or opportunity from looking for alternatives.
- hhjinks 6y ago
  > The "unemployed men" is a narrative Perpetuated by whom? Why would anyone involved want to blame unemployed men? Those who support storming the Capitol wouldn't want to portray themselves as "frustrated, unemployed men," and those who oppose it wouldn't want to blame a supposedly innocent group. Where does the perception come from?
maximente 6y ago
what makes Russia the world's number one urban warfare country?

watwut 6y ago

> Employed people with disposable income rarely want to upend the system. The people who attacked Capitol were employed with disposable income.

doctor_eval 6y ago
Yeah but they weren’t trying to upend the current system, they were trying to perpetuate it.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Are you kidding me? Donald Trump's election was a big "fuck you" to the system. They absolutely want to upend the system. The system isn't working for them, and they know it. If the system was working, wages wouldn't be stagnant for 50 years. Housing prices wouldn't have nearly quadrupled. College education prices wouldn't have nearly... you know what, I don't even know the correct modifier... gone up by 5000%. In 1971, CEO pay was at best 30-40 times the median salary of an employee at a company. If you made $10,000 a year, the CEO might make $300,000-400,000. The very best CEOs rarely made multi-millions. This is not a sustainable system. The problem is, these people don't really have the education to know how to attack the system to correctly dismantle it (in fact, it might not even be possible to dismantle it from a non-violent / institutional standpoint, but that's another conversation), so they instead riot and install Viking Pepe as their leader.
  - adamcstephens 6y ago
    I guess you’re getting downvoted for this one because you’re more explicitly blaming the system instead of the actors. I agree with you that until we fix the rot in the system that leaves so many in despair, unrest will continue to escalate.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      People respond to incentives, incentives are created by systems, and systems aren't put into place by one single person. The "actors" that created many of the problems we suffer under are dead or dying - or quite simply, too rich and powerful to be easily or effectively held accountable. I think I'm being downvoted because most of us that post here on HN are either thoroughly entrenched in the system in some way, or we're elevated beyond these problems which mostly affect poorly educated lower class people. We have tons of FAANG employees that post here, tons of wealthy entrepreneurs, lots of startup founders, etc. None of us really have jack shit in common with poor disenfranchised people. But we better start making it a priority to look into, else I fear we're going to find ourselves in a very unenviable position.
  - watwut 6y ago
neartheplain 6y ago
Echoes of BLM protests in which most violent actors were white [0], i.e. not a member of the group in whose name they did violence. Could be many reasons for this. I’d speculate that no matter the political leaning, some fraction of people are always looking for excuses to be violent, and will readily deploy others’ grievances to this end. [0] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/arrest-records-show-most-protesters-are-local-not-affiliated-with-organized-groups/283-2f4d1db1-6cc3-4e57-8bd9-75b5534c058e https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/arrest-recor...

MattGaiser 6y ago

> there's less and less available jobs for working age men, those men will find something to occupy their time I am going through lists of Capitol stormers. I am finding cops, former firefighters, former officers, teachers, real estate agents, professors, lawyers, CEOS, etc. If anything, these people have some of the better jobs. I am sure there are unemployed people in there and there is selection bias, but it is hardly exclusive. Some articles of employed people: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-fallout/some-us-capitol-rioters-fired-after-internet-detectives-identify-them-idUSKBN29C36M https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-fal... https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-people-that-have-lost-their-jobs-after-participating-capitol-riots-1560058 https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-people-that-have-lost-thei...

cbozeman 6y ago
I think you're focusing on the storming of the Capitol itself and not the over-arching sentiment that even makes such an event possible. As a species, we're not exactly martyrs. Its the reason one man with a shotgun can hold 26 people hostage. At best, if every person bum rushed him, he might get 2-4 shots off. That's the absolute best case scenario. The logical thing to do is a coordinated attack, because then you ensure the safety of the group instead of your individual safety. So it goes with this. If hundreds of people were willing to storm the Capitol, its because hundreds of thousands - possibly even millions - have the same sentiment, but for whatever reason - distance, fear of reprisal, etc. - couldn't physically be there. I think that incident was 1) just the start of many more riots / clashes and 2) evidence of much larger, broader problem that we need to solve.

pjc50 6y ago

The "unemployed men" is a narrative, but the ringleaders of this stuff are comfortably employed or retired. Exhibit A: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/10/retired-air-force-lieutenant-colonel-arrested-charged-capitol-riot.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/10/retired-air-f... > And if you think that the American military is entirely unsympathetic to these people, you are starkly and dangerously wrong This is a serious problem. Either the incoming democrat administration lets it fester and be "protected" by people who will cheerfully discuss their murder, or they carry out what could accurately be described as an ideological "purge". > Russia They sent a spy to solicit the NRA, who was hugely successful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Butina#Involvement_in_U.S._politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Butina#Involvement_in_U....

adamcstephens 6y ago
Ringleaders will come and go, but that won’t stop the millions without hope or opportunity from looking for alternatives.
hhjinks 6y ago
> The "unemployed men" is a narrative Perpetuated by whom? Why would anyone involved want to blame unemployed men? Those who support storming the Capitol wouldn't want to portray themselves as "frustrated, unemployed men," and those who oppose it wouldn't want to blame a supposedly innocent group. Where does the perception come from?

maximente 6y ago

what makes Russia the world's number one urban warfare country?