4 ms·

Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not.

mytailorisrich 6y ago
That's great but I fail to see the relation with my comment. I'm not talking about very central roads that can be mostly restricted to pedestrians, or city areas with narrow streets but also little to no traffic. I'm talking about roads in general. Amsterdam has many roads that look hugely wide for British standards. Example: hhttps://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,81.37h,70.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3Mk1fV_F6xCPtK-BgT8eLg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D3Mk1fV_F6xCPtK-BgT8eLg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D107.590294%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,... This is one of the main roads into Oxford. Note the "cycle lane"... Still, that road is not too bad because it has an exceptionally wide pavement on one side. It's usually more like this: (Henley on Thames, where Boris Johnson used to be MP, again one of the main accesses to the town) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5375008,-0.8998416,3a,75y,296.4h,70.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNPg6kPII1CROWH6Cqrmrxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5375008,-0.8998416,3a,75y,...
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  1. Botley Road - there is plenty of space for a two-way cycle path in the photo you show. Just a couple of photos down, you can see the road fits three vehicles abreast: in other words, it would comfortably fit two road lanes and a double cycle lane, if only that had been or was constructed. There are much trickier problems solved in the Netherlands. 2. Henley Bridge - Overall, Henley could be ideal for cycling around. OK, one of the main routes into the town crosses a river. Yet, if this was in the Netherlands, they would simply have built a parallel cycle bridge at some point in the last 20 years. Or, if there still wasn't one, they'd build one now. Here you go, Rijswijk swingbrug, opened 2014 (watch the video for relevant commentary): https://www.oozo.nl/video/rijswijk/84608/rijswijk-cycle-bridge https://www.oozo.nl/video/rijswijk/84608/rijswijk-cycle-brid... Or Delft's Gelatinebrug, scheduled to open in 2023: https://www.delft.nl/wonen/bouwen/bouwprojecten-de-stad/schieoevers/gelatinebrug https://www.delft.nl/wonen/bouwen/bouwprojecten-de-stad/schi... There are plenty of other examples. Amsterdam's narrow roads have little to no traffic only because of political decisions that cars are not the only form of transport that need to be considered. You can see in archive footage that this wasn't always the case.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Not sure what you're trying to argue about at this point. I'm stating facts here: UK roads tend to be very narrow to the point that it is difficult/impossible to just add cycle lanes, and even new roads or development do not include space for cycle lanes (when they should). You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. Well, yes exactly what I'm saying is not the case in the UK and often it is not even doable (it's not only a matter of building a new bridge if the access roads don't have the space, either...)
    - throwaway2245 6y ago
      > You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. No, I'm showing you extremely old infrastructure (Delft: founded 1246, Rijswijk: pre-historic) that have invested in modern solutions for cycling. The towns I have picked that are almost exact equivalents for Henley here, except that Henley has not bothered. [For what it's worth, I agree there is no point in starting out by constructing a cycle lane from the middle of nowhere into a town with no cycle provision - but the UK is 5 decades behind in this aspect, and continuing to fall further behind]
      - mytailorisrich 6y ago
        Old/new it does not matter. > I picked towns that are almost exact equivalents for Henley, except that Henley has not bothered. Well, that's my point, isn't it? Glad we agree... The thing is that it is difficult to resolve when that has been the case for decades, if not centuries because it's like that everywhere and you cannot decide to re-do half the country's road network and to raze everything that's in the way, especially in the UK. 19th century Paris: They did raze a large part of the city to make way for new avenues. 17th century London: After the Great Fire they rebuilt following exactly the previous narrow roads because no-one wanted to lose an inch or pay for an inch, and it's still the way any new projects are welcomed...
        6y ago
- eythian 6y ago
  You said: > So roads are as narrow as possible and congested, which in itself is not great for bikes but also makes bike lanes near impossible. They replied: > Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not. That is the relationship with your comment. The centre of Amsterdam does not tend to have wide roads (with a handful of exceptions) and yet has bikes. Indeed, it is possible to drive down most of those roads, however the city has put a lot of effort into discouraging it which reduces the congestion and makes biking nicer. Now, newly built areas tend to have wider streets, but there are plenty of old city centres in the Netherlands that are bike friendly, despite their being as narrow as possible. Congestion can be dealt with much more easily.

That's great but I fail to see the relation with my comment. I'm not talking about very central roads that can be mostly restricted to pedestrians, or city areas with narrow streets but also little to no traffic. I'm talking about roads in general. Amsterdam has many roads that look hugely wide for British standards. Example: hhttps://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,81.37h,70.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3Mk1fV_F6xCPtK-BgT8eLg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D3Mk1fV_F6xCPtK-BgT8eLg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D107.590294%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524584,-1.2749531,3a,75y,... This is one of the main roads into Oxford. Note the "cycle lane"... Still, that road is not too bad because it has an exceptionally wide pavement on one side. It's usually more like this: (Henley on Thames, where Boris Johnson used to be MP, again one of the main accesses to the town) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5375008,-0.8998416,3a,75y,296.4h,70.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNPg6kPII1CROWH6Cqrmrxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5375008,-0.8998416,3a,75y,...

throwaway2245 6y ago
1. Botley Road - there is plenty of space for a two-way cycle path in the photo you show. Just a couple of photos down, you can see the road fits three vehicles abreast: in other words, it would comfortably fit two road lanes and a double cycle lane, if only that had been or was constructed. There are much trickier problems solved in the Netherlands. 2. Henley Bridge - Overall, Henley could be ideal for cycling around. OK, one of the main routes into the town crosses a river. Yet, if this was in the Netherlands, they would simply have built a parallel cycle bridge at some point in the last 20 years. Or, if there still wasn't one, they'd build one now. Here you go, Rijswijk swingbrug, opened 2014 (watch the video for relevant commentary): https://www.oozo.nl/video/rijswijk/84608/rijswijk-cycle-bridge https://www.oozo.nl/video/rijswijk/84608/rijswijk-cycle-brid... Or Delft's Gelatinebrug, scheduled to open in 2023: https://www.delft.nl/wonen/bouwen/bouwprojecten-de-stad/schieoevers/gelatinebrug https://www.delft.nl/wonen/bouwen/bouwprojecten-de-stad/schi... There are plenty of other examples. Amsterdam's narrow roads have little to no traffic only because of political decisions that cars are not the only form of transport that need to be considered. You can see in archive footage that this wasn't always the case.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Not sure what you're trying to argue about at this point. I'm stating facts here: UK roads tend to be very narrow to the point that it is difficult/impossible to just add cycle lanes, and even new roads or development do not include space for cycle lanes (when they should). You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. Well, yes exactly what I'm saying is not the case in the UK and often it is not even doable (it's not only a matter of building a new bridge if the access roads don't have the space, either...)
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    > You show me examples in the Netherlands where they have built or are building new infrastructures where cycle lanes are accounted for. No, I'm showing you extremely old infrastructure (Delft: founded 1246, Rijswijk: pre-historic) that have invested in modern solutions for cycling. The towns I have picked that are almost exact equivalents for Henley here, except that Henley has not bothered. [For what it's worth, I agree there is no point in starting out by constructing a cycle lane from the middle of nowhere into a town with no cycle provision - but the UK is 5 decades behind in this aspect, and continuing to fall further behind]
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      Old/new it does not matter. > I picked towns that are almost exact equivalents for Henley, except that Henley has not bothered. Well, that's my point, isn't it? Glad we agree... The thing is that it is difficult to resolve when that has been the case for decades, if not centuries because it's like that everywhere and you cannot decide to re-do half the country's road network and to raze everything that's in the way, especially in the UK. 19th century Paris: They did raze a large part of the city to make way for new avenues. 17th century London: After the Great Fire they rebuilt following exactly the previous narrow roads because no-one wanted to lose an inch or pay for an inch, and it's still the way any new projects are welcomed...
      - 6y ago
eythian 6y ago
You said: > So roads are as narrow as possible and congested, which in itself is not great for bikes but also makes bike lanes near impossible. They replied: > Do you think the centre of Amsterdam has wide roads? It does not. That is the relationship with your comment. The centre of Amsterdam does not tend to have wide roads (with a handful of exceptions) and yet has bikes. Indeed, it is possible to drive down most of those roads, however the city has put a lot of effort into discouraging it which reduces the congestion and makes biking nicer. Now, newly built areas tend to have wider streets, but there are plenty of old city centres in the Netherlands that are bike friendly, despite their being as narrow as possible. Congestion can be dealt with much more easily.