6 ms·

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvi

by tnolet 6y ago

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the video mentions somewhere, this is the result of hardcore decision making since the 60ties. Not an overnight succes.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?
- itronitron 6y ago
  It was normal in the US in the 70s and 80s for young children to walk (and maybe bike) to school. Definitely not normal now unless they are being escorted by a parent or babysitter. A lot depends on where the school is sited relative to the students' homes and the trend in the US is for schools to be on very large lots and surrounded by parking lots.
- mrsuprawsm 6y ago
  At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    *laughs in My First Errand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently. I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities. It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adults always know better, and must make every decision for them.”.
    - erik_seaberg 6y ago
      It’s not “children can’t navigate” so much as “children can’t fend off abduction by sexual abusers.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger
      - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
        Ah yes, that. That is most definitely also a problem here. I was very much warned by my parent not to go with strangers in a manner I later realized was completely counter effective as it implied that there was an easy way to tell which strangers were dangerous and which weren't. I since learned that my parent would be wiser to warn me for relatives and teachers and strangers, if he were truly so concerned for my safety rather than assuaging his moral panics. It is still however nonsensical and the chance of ill happening is considerably smaller than letting a relative babysit me. In fact, one could argue that children are safer when they be left alone, than when they be properly babysat, because the babysitter is one of the ones who would be most likely to hurt them.
  - barrkel 6y ago
    When I was a kid in Ireland in the 80s, we'd walk to the village school unaccompanied. A five or ten minute walk at most, kids from the age of 6 at least, though the fact that all the kids are going means the roads weren't exactly empty of kids going to the same school.
    - ljf 6y ago
      UK 80s kid here - I walked to school with the 2 girls across the road from me. From Junior 1 (7 turning 8yo) we'd walk to and from school alone, 20 min walk each way.
- loriverkutya 6y ago
  Nope, in the US you go to jail https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrest...
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    I find it soothly bizarre. How do they attend school? they are driven to it? I said this in another comment, but I find Anglo-Saxon culture to unduly assume that children are completely incompetent. https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/living/mom-arrested-left-girl-park-parents/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/living/mom-arrested-left-... At least there is a debate here. I was left alone to play unsupervised at ages around four or five to no ill effect. What exactly do they believe could happen? Assume I somehow be hurt: I would cry; bystanders would be drawn near over the noise; they would ask me what was wrong; and I would receive medical attention if need be, and even if I would be driven to a hospital, I would easily be able to tell them my name and address and thus my parent would easily be contacted as to what had transpired — this all in the most unlikely event that I would hurt myself from playing on a playground designed for children.
    - Someone 6y ago
      > How do they attend school? they are driven to it? Yes. An extreme example: https://mobile.twitter.com/fietsprofessor/status/1275718915243548674 https://mobile.twitter.com/fietsprofessor/status/12757189152...
      - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
        No helicopters? I am disappoint. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjrT6ZAIUAAEHZp.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjrT6ZAIUAAEHZp.jpg
- Zenka 6y ago
  In the Netherlands you learn the traffic rules (at school) when you're 10/11 years old. There is a little exam even. It's normal children start cycling unattended from that point. However, children have been cycling attended since... when they are big enough to operate a bike that goes fast enough to do so (so say, from 5 years old.) Ergo they probably already know, in practice, how to operate safely in traffic. When my parents caught me cycling home unattended during the longer school lunch breaks, and I confessed I've been doing that for most of the school year, they were like: "oh. Guess you know how to do that safely then. Carry on." I think I was 9 at that point. (It was a very safe route, which is common for Dutch home-primary school situations.)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Thlom 6y ago
  My daughter cycled or walked to school since she was around 7, but a lot of children are driven to school by their parents. So many actually that the school had to construct a drop-off zone. I'm not entirely sure when it started or why, but when I went to the same school 20+ years ago it was not a thing. Everyone walked or cycled to school (or used a kick sled the few days of winter when that was possible) from their first day. I know they have the same problem at most schools in the country, which is Norway BTW.
- bklaasen 6y ago
  In Ireland during the 1980s, 50% of kids cycled to school. Now it's 2%. I'm sure there's a qualifier there about urban/suburban/rural; I'll try to dig up the report. I was one of those 1980s kids; the bicycle sheds contained several hundred bikes, all year round. I never heard of any kid being killed on a bike, out of 1,200 students over six years.
dstick 6y ago
May I recommend "Het recht van de snelste" to you? I read it a few weeks ago and it was mind blowing to learn the things we take for granted, and how they came to be, when it comes to public space and transport. Unexpected gem of a book and a delight to read.
Vinnl 6y ago
I had the exact same a couple of years ago. However, another interesting that happened is that since then, I've also been aware of how far we've come in just that time. Like, yes, our bicycle infrastructure was good, but it's still continually improving with renewed insights and refined legislation. For example, the city I live in has really doubled down on the bicycle (and walking) being the primary method of transportation. So not only are all road maintenance jobs required to comply with updated requirements, but roads are being actively transformed to make them more bicycle-friendly as part of a multi-year infrastructure plan. Which just goes to show: you can make great strides by improving the situation iteratively.

by tnolet 6y ago

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?

itronitron 6y ago
It was normal in the US in the 70s and 80s for young children to walk (and maybe bike) to school. Definitely not normal now unless they are being escorted by a parent or babysitter. A lot depends on where the school is sited relative to the students' homes and the trend in the US is for schools to be on very large lots and surrounded by parking lots.
mrsuprawsm 6y ago
At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  *laughs in My First Errand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently. I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities. It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adults always know better, and must make every decision for them.”.
  - erik_seaberg 6y ago
    It’s not “children can’t navigate” so much as “children can’t fend off abduction by sexual abusers.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
      Ah yes, that. That is most definitely also a problem here. I was very much warned by my parent not to go with strangers in a manner I later realized was completely counter effective as it implied that there was an easy way to tell which strangers were dangerous and which weren't. I since learned that my parent would be wiser to warn me for relatives and teachers and strangers, if he were truly so concerned for my safety rather than assuaging his moral panics. It is still however nonsensical and the chance of ill happening is considerably smaller than letting a relative babysit me. In fact, one could argue that children are safer when they be left alone, than when they be properly babysat, because the babysitter is one of the ones who would be most likely to hurt them.
- barrkel 6y ago
  When I was a kid in Ireland in the 80s, we'd walk to the village school unaccompanied. A five or ten minute walk at most, kids from the age of 6 at least, though the fact that all the kids are going means the roads weren't exactly empty of kids going to the same school.
  - ljf 6y ago
    UK 80s kid here - I walked to school with the 2 girls across the road from me. From Junior 1 (7 turning 8yo) we'd walk to and from school alone, 20 min walk each way.
loriverkutya 6y ago
Nope, in the US you go to jail https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrest...
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  I find it soothly bizarre. How do they attend school? they are driven to it? I said this in another comment, but I find Anglo-Saxon culture to unduly assume that children are completely incompetent. https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/living/mom-arrested-left-girl-park-parents/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/living/mom-arrested-left-... At least there is a debate here. I was left alone to play unsupervised at ages around four or five to no ill effect. What exactly do they believe could happen? Assume I somehow be hurt: I would cry; bystanders would be drawn near over the noise; they would ask me what was wrong; and I would receive medical attention if need be, and even if I would be driven to a hospital, I would easily be able to tell them my name and address and thus my parent would easily be contacted as to what had transpired — this all in the most unlikely event that I would hurt myself from playing on a playground designed for children.
  - Someone 6y ago
    > How do they attend school? they are driven to it? Yes. An extreme example: https://mobile.twitter.com/fietsprofessor/status/1275718915243548674 https://mobile.twitter.com/fietsprofessor/status/12757189152...
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
      No helicopters? I am disappoint. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjrT6ZAIUAAEHZp.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjrT6ZAIUAAEHZp.jpg
Zenka 6y ago
In the Netherlands you learn the traffic rules (at school) when you're 10/11 years old. There is a little exam even. It's normal children start cycling unattended from that point. However, children have been cycling attended since... when they are big enough to operate a bike that goes fast enough to do so (so say, from 5 years old.) Ergo they probably already know, in practice, how to operate safely in traffic. When my parents caught me cycling home unattended during the longer school lunch breaks, and I confessed I've been doing that for most of the school year, they were like: "oh. Guess you know how to do that safely then. Carry on." I think I was 9 at that point. (It was a very safe route, which is common for Dutch home-primary school situations.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Thlom 6y ago
My daughter cycled or walked to school since she was around 7, but a lot of children are driven to school by their parents. So many actually that the school had to construct a drop-off zone. I'm not entirely sure when it started or why, but when I went to the same school 20+ years ago it was not a thing. Everyone walked or cycled to school (or used a kick sled the few days of winter when that was possible) from their first day. I know they have the same problem at most schools in the country, which is Norway BTW.
bklaasen 6y ago
In Ireland during the 1980s, 50% of kids cycled to school. Now it's 2%. I'm sure there's a qualifier there about urban/suburban/rural; I'll try to dig up the report. I was one of those 1980s kids; the bicycle sheds contained several hundred bikes, all year round. I never heard of any kid being killed on a bike, out of 1,200 students over six years.

dstick 6y ago

May I recommend "Het recht van de snelste" to you? I read it a few weeks ago and it was mind blowing to learn the things we take for granted, and how they came to be, when it comes to public space and transport. Unexpected gem of a book and a delight to read.

Vinnl 6y ago

I had the exact same a couple of years ago. However, another interesting that happened is that since then, I've also been aware of how far we've come in just that time. Like, yes, our bicycle infrastructure was good, but it's still continually improving with renewed insights and refined legislation. For example, the city I live in has really doubled down on the bicycle (and walking) being the primary method of transportation. So not only are all road maintenance jobs required to comply with updated requirements, but roads are being actively transformed to make them more bicycle-friendly as part of a multi-year infrastructure plan. Which just goes to show: you can make great strides by improving the situation iteratively.