5 ms·

In Europe we have cheap, accessible education, that alone will amount to more social mobility than anything happening in the US. I know what you mean, it's har

In Europe we have cheap, accessible education, that alone will amount to more social mobility than anything happening in the US. I know what you mean, it's harder to get "rich" in Europe, but in terms of going from lower class to middle or upper middle class I think that's easier to achieve in Europe compared to the US.

emteycz 6y ago
It's not harder, it's absolutely impossible for a huge portion of the EU population (the eastern half, basically). In the USA the economy enables even the poorest people to start selling at scale and for much bigger margins, and to get investment capital easily and way more of it. In the USA even the poorest people can own property in big cities, that's absolutely not the case in eastern EU, poor people are locked to small towns and villages here.
- toyg 6y ago
  I think there is a terminology disconnect here. Typically people mean “Western Europe” when discussing wealth indicators. Eastern Europe is a specific case that suffered from a few “lost” decades, it accounts for less than a fourth of the EU population, and as much as it’s catching up fairly quickly, it still lags behind quite significantly and is not representative of “European” wealth indicators.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    They mean northwest Europe. Nobody on HN is tripping over themselves to compare the US to Italy, Greece or even Spain. At that point why compare to the US though? If the comparisons exclude former communist Europe and poor Mediterranean Europe from then why not exclude rust belt American and Appalachia from comparisons?
    - inglor_cz 6y ago
      As a Czech traveling around Spain, Andalucia felt poorer to me than CZ, and way more hopeless. The local unemployment rate was just terrible even before Covid. A lot of people rented out their only spare, tiny room on AirBNB because they had to.
    - toyg 6y ago
      > Nobody on HN is tripping over themselves to compare the US to Italy, Greece or even Spain I disagree. Italy is typically included everywhere - it's a G7/G8 country, with a GDP bigger than Canada or Australia, and trumps Spain on pretty much any indicator (let alone Greece). It has its problems but it's not a poor or bankrupt country by any means. > At that point why compare to the US though? If the comparisons exclude former communist Europe and poor Mediterranean Europe In terms of population, the EU as a whole is 30% larger than the US. It's somewhat inevitable that there will be some pruning when trying to compare apples to apples. It's just a fact that Eastern Europe is not representative of the larger Union any more than, say, Mississipi, Oklahoma or Alaska are fundamentally representative of the whole US.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        We're talking about half of the EU population, not some pruning. And still, people from Mississippi or Oklahoma at least have the US market around them.
- MaysonL 6y ago
  > In the USA even the poorest people can own property in big cities. Why do think, then, that there are so many homeless people in the US? They aren’t all mentally ill or drug addicts.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    I am not saying there aren't significant issues in the US. It's still hard to get yourself out of the pit and I think that the US certainly would benefit from stronger social safety measures, as well as healthcare reform. But your chance of success is basically none in half of the EU. Even homeless people in the US have a much better chance, because they have access to the US market.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    If you're homeless it's hard to get a bank account, it's hard to get a job, it's hard to get someone to trust you. If you're not mentally ill or a drug addict, good luck getting someone to think otherwise and give you a job. I remember this story of this homeless man with an amazing voice. Some radio host gave him a job, it looked like a success story and after a few months he lost everything again due to his addiction
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  This is demonstrably false. Freedom of movement combined with education combined with a semi-standard language (English, no matter how ragged) means that anyone with an in-demand blue collar skill - plumbing, building work, etc - can move to a different country and set up as a small trader. This has happened many times and continues to happen. I know a number of people who have done exactly this, and a few of them now own multiple properties. They also send money back to their families in their home countries. Good luck trying to do the same in the US. If the rents in white collar areas don't kill you, the healthcare costs will.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    You're seriously mistaken. Good luck being a plumber in most EU countries with only commanding the English language. That may work in tech but on a construction site or any blue collar job the customer or your boss will address you in the local language not English or your native tongue and if you don't speak it then you're a huge liability for the business. Also, all bureaucratic issues with the banks and local authorities for setting up a business if you're self employed are also not done in English but in the local language. Try getting a blue collar job in Germany, and I don't mean a barista in a hip touristic district where all clients are foreigners. You're expected to pick up the local language yesterday. The US having English as the default language everywhere means much less friction for everyone including foreigners be them employees or entrepreneurs.
    - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
      And yet - the people I know who did everything I said are still there, doing what they did. There's certainly less language friction in the US. But there is far, far more economic and class friction. And most people can pick up the basics of a language.
    - jusssi 6y ago
      In construction there's actually plenty of foreign subcontractors. They just bring a whole team, so it's enough if one of them knows the language well enough to understand what they'll need to do. Edit: In general, I won't disagree with you that language is a real barrier for employment in EU.

emteycz 6y ago

It's not harder, it's absolutely impossible for a huge portion of the EU population (the eastern half, basically). In the USA the economy enables even the poorest people to start selling at scale and for much bigger margins, and to get investment capital easily and way more of it. In the USA even the poorest people can own property in big cities, that's absolutely not the case in eastern EU, poor people are locked to small towns and villages here.

toyg 6y ago
I think there is a terminology disconnect here. Typically people mean “Western Europe” when discussing wealth indicators. Eastern Europe is a specific case that suffered from a few “lost” decades, it accounts for less than a fourth of the EU population, and as much as it’s catching up fairly quickly, it still lags behind quite significantly and is not representative of “European” wealth indicators.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  They mean northwest Europe. Nobody on HN is tripping over themselves to compare the US to Italy, Greece or even Spain. At that point why compare to the US though? If the comparisons exclude former communist Europe and poor Mediterranean Europe from then why not exclude rust belt American and Appalachia from comparisons?
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    As a Czech traveling around Spain, Andalucia felt poorer to me than CZ, and way more hopeless. The local unemployment rate was just terrible even before Covid. A lot of people rented out their only spare, tiny room on AirBNB because they had to.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > Nobody on HN is tripping over themselves to compare the US to Italy, Greece or even Spain I disagree. Italy is typically included everywhere - it's a G7/G8 country, with a GDP bigger than Canada or Australia, and trumps Spain on pretty much any indicator (let alone Greece). It has its problems but it's not a poor or bankrupt country by any means. > At that point why compare to the US though? If the comparisons exclude former communist Europe and poor Mediterranean Europe In terms of population, the EU as a whole is 30% larger than the US. It's somewhat inevitable that there will be some pruning when trying to compare apples to apples. It's just a fact that Eastern Europe is not representative of the larger Union any more than, say, Mississipi, Oklahoma or Alaska are fundamentally representative of the whole US.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      We're talking about half of the EU population, not some pruning. And still, people from Mississippi or Oklahoma at least have the US market around them.
MaysonL 6y ago
> In the USA even the poorest people can own property in big cities. Why do think, then, that there are so many homeless people in the US? They aren’t all mentally ill or drug addicts.
- emteycz 6y ago
  I am not saying there aren't significant issues in the US. It's still hard to get yourself out of the pit and I think that the US certainly would benefit from stronger social safety measures, as well as healthcare reform. But your chance of success is basically none in half of the EU. Even homeless people in the US have a much better chance, because they have access to the US market.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  If you're homeless it's hard to get a bank account, it's hard to get a job, it's hard to get someone to trust you. If you're not mentally ill or a drug addict, good luck getting someone to think otherwise and give you a job. I remember this story of this homeless man with an amazing voice. Some radio host gave him a job, it looked like a success story and after a few months he lost everything again due to his addiction
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
This is demonstrably false. Freedom of movement combined with education combined with a semi-standard language (English, no matter how ragged) means that anyone with an in-demand blue collar skill - plumbing, building work, etc - can move to a different country and set up as a small trader. This has happened many times and continues to happen. I know a number of people who have done exactly this, and a few of them now own multiple properties. They also send money back to their families in their home countries. Good luck trying to do the same in the US. If the rents in white collar areas don't kill you, the healthcare costs will.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  You're seriously mistaken. Good luck being a plumber in most EU countries with only commanding the English language. That may work in tech but on a construction site or any blue collar job the customer or your boss will address you in the local language not English or your native tongue and if you don't speak it then you're a huge liability for the business. Also, all bureaucratic issues with the banks and local authorities for setting up a business if you're self employed are also not done in English but in the local language. Try getting a blue collar job in Germany, and I don't mean a barista in a hip touristic district where all clients are foreigners. You're expected to pick up the local language yesterday. The US having English as the default language everywhere means much less friction for everyone including foreigners be them employees or entrepreneurs.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    And yet - the people I know who did everything I said are still there, doing what they did. There's certainly less language friction in the US. But there is far, far more economic and class friction. And most people can pick up the basics of a language.
  - jusssi 6y ago
    In construction there's actually plenty of foreign subcontractors. They just bring a whole team, so it's enough if one of them knows the language well enough to understand what they'll need to do. Edit: In general, I won't disagree with you that language is a real barrier for employment in EU.