7 ms·

What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design?

35 points by luu 6y ago

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
I must say that I find it rather odd that apparently it is “phænomenal” that 25% of all trips are by bike. What other means of transportation would one use for short distances where a bike is simply faster than a car due to ease of parking? Personally, however, I use a skateboard fitted with 100 mm all terrain wheels for even greater ease of parking.
- dairylee 6y ago
  For myself, in the UK, it's not about which mode of transport is faster but which mode of transport is safer.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    It is truly unsafe to take a bicycle in the U.K.?
    - dmitri1981 6y ago
      Depends where you are. London is starting to get some good cycling lanes and some junctions are having traffic rerouted to make it safer for cyclists. Sadly in many other places cycling only really works for confident riders. Lots of drivers are either unaware of cyclists or downright aggressive. I would have near misses on a weekly basis. Things are getting better but very slowly.
      - wooger 6y ago
        And in our other cities it's still way cheaper (and socially acceptable) to drive in from the suburbs and park. There are car parks literally 200m from the centre of Birmingham where you can park all day for less than 10 pounds, and cheaper still nearby. Things are starting to change (oddly during COVID) by addition of bus gates, but they're making very slow progress. We've already delayed and diluted our congestion charge multiple times.
    - armada651 6y ago
      As a Dutch person who lived in the UK for a year, yes. Bicycle lanes are nearly non-existent outside of London and the boroughs seem to be hostile to the idea in general. The few bicycle lanes you do find often end as abruptly as they start, there's nothing connecting them and there are no bicycle crossings when you meet a road. However if you get a mountain bike and stick to the dirt roads along the rivers and hills, it is a great place to enjoy cycling through the countryside. One of the best bike trips I've done is cycling for 30 miles along the Thames river. So the UK is great for scenic cycling, terrible for a cycling commute. And yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure.
      - DrBazza 6y ago
        > Yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure. And so you should. The UK's cycling infrastructure is embarrassingly bad. An example. Local to me, recently, the government spent over £100m on a new road junction, to replace an old one. One of the main reasons that they had to build a new junction was that they claimed they could not remove traffic lights from the roundabout to improve traffic because pedestrians and cyclists both crossed the junction at 'street level'. A local cycle organization submitted a proposal with modelling (I can't find the link atm.), that showed that the desired increase in capacity could be achieved by adding bridges for pedestrians and cyclists, removing traffic lights, and altering the road layout. And save about £90m. Needlessly to say, the junction was built. I have no idea whether their proposal was considered, or not, unless I submit a freedom of information request to the UK government. Regardless, the bridges should have been built anyway, because the junction is between two suburbs. The new junction did get a new cyclist/pedestrian bridge to replace the old one. Except it's about 1km further away from the suburbs that the previous junction, so adding 2km to bike journeys.
        markvdb 6y ago
        Actually, bicycle tunnels - with a limited slope of course, like all other bicycle infrastructure - are recommended over bicycle bridges. These are more comfortable for cyclists. Gravity helps one cycle down, and the kinetic energy gained helps cyclists on the way up in the second half of the tunnel.
    - DrBazza 6y ago
      It depends, but yes. There are a lot of deaths each year, and the law is not in favour of the cyclist either. In fact, it gets worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708 Stay away from the cities, and it's generally safer, but at the same time you'll find cars doing 60 mph on single carriageway roads (the national speed limit), which can also be marked as a national cycle route. If you cycle somewhere where cars don't normally encounter cyclists, it can be "fun" as the motorists don't know how to behave. The trouble with the UK is that even so-called cycle paths are shared with footpaths, so pedestrians are all over the place, and cycle paths that are getting built as 'joint' footpaths, mean as a cyclist you also stop at every road junction. Compare that to Europe, where the cycle path is an additional lane next to the road/main carriageway and is usually physically separated in some way for safety. In the UK this has the unfortunate effect of making a large percentage of cyclist just us the road (which they are legally entitled to do), because the cycle path next to the road "stops" every 100 yards because there's a road joining the main carriageway that you have to cross.
      - phicoh 6y ago
        The side road can be restructured to give bikes priority. And put some good speedbumps on the side road to give cars a hint that they need to pay attention.
        DrBazza 6y ago
        Agreed. They can, but they never are. For car drivers, the expectation is that they have right of way on a road, and they that come to a halt at the road junction, and not a few yards before it because there's a bike path crossing. Town planners/local planning departments are under so much pressure that they literally just end up ticking boxes, and rarely push back on house builders to change their site plans. The 'desire path' is a straight line, for both pedestrians and cyclists, yet new housing estates are allowed to put in bendy cyclepath/footpaths next to otherwise straight roads. It is ridiculous. Anything 'new' to car drivers in the UK is a problem. We definitely should try and change UK roads to be more bike friendly, but that's the reality. The new bike roundabout in Cambridge, unique in the UK, but common in Europe, and.... accidents: https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambridge-traffic-cyclist-involved-crash-19275730 https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambrid...
- 47r6dudh 6y ago
  Personally I'd escooter everywhere if my own city hadn't hobbled them thoroughly (both dockless and personal). I respect the cycling community but it's just too much work for me and I imagine many similarly unambitious people.
  - wooger 6y ago
    hobbled how? For me, the form factor of a battery powered lazy person's vehicle is not yet perfected, and they should be more akin to a sit-down vespa scooter than the current scooters. The centre of mass is just too high, the wheels too small. They should also be restricted to roads - as a cyclist I've never seen one ridden safely in a bike path, and I don't think standing allows for quick enough braking for the average user. Not to mention that in my country, outside of a few city specific rental deals, all scooters are illegal for use in public - so literally everyone on one is a dangerous criminal.
- frederikvs 6y ago
  Do take into account that there are places where infrastructure is designed primarily around cars. This means a.o. that wherever you want to go, there'll be pretty good parking really close by. Combine that with a lack of proper bike infrastructure. No bike racks anywhere in sight, so you have to dump your bike on the pavement, hoping nobody will give it a shove because it's in their way. No bike lanes, or if there are, they have angles and corners that are not realistic to take on a bike. Corners that have you swerving into the opposite lane if you take them at anything above 15 km/h. In those situations taking the car for short distances becomes the convenient, fast and safe thing to do. P.S. from your name I suspect you're Dutch. In that case you don't even have to go far to find that sort of situation. I live in Belgium, which is generally considered to be a rather bike friendly country. I beg to differ. Everything I describe above applies, at least in a region of a few kilometers around my house. I can only assume it also applies elsewhere in Belgium.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  I wanted to argue against the 'Europeans are supercilious' comment, but this comment doesn't help. Dutch people do know that the extent of their bike lanes and infrastructure is incredible. I've only seen the new 'megafietsenstalling' at Den Haag Centraal train station complained about because 8000 bike parking spaces was not ambitious enough and is not expected to be enough space. And yet, it's the second largest in the world after Utrecht (also in the Netherlands). At a comparable train station in London, you would be lucky to find 10 bike parking spaces.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    > I wanted to argue against the 'Europeans are supercilious' comment, but this comment doesn't help. Dutch people do know that the extent of their bike lanes and infrastructure is incredible. Yet you will find many Dutchmen in this thread, including the comment you're replying to, that express that this is the first time in their lives they've given it thought. > I've only seen the new 'megafietsenstalling' at Den Haag Centraal train station complained about because 8000 bike parking spaces was not ambitious enough and is not expected to be enough space. And yet, it's the second largest in the world after Utrecht (also in the Netherlands). One of the many reasons I favor the skateboard over the bicycle — it joins me in the train. > At a comparable train station in London, you would be lucky to find 10 bike parking spaces. Well I have never been at a London train station. I've been at Belgian, German, and French ones, and I did not notice any particular difference that stood out.
  - jules 6y ago
    At a busy time, the average stationsfietsenstalling is overfull and has -500 places, so that's why people complain :)
    - throwaway2245 6y ago
      Of course! In London, it can just be expected that there is not anywhere appropriate to park. And, nobody cares to do anything about this, so it seems futile to complain.
- jules 6y ago
  Bike, walk, scooter, bus, train, car. Here's a breakdown (in million trips, 2016 numbers): Car as driver: 4854 Car as passenger: 2127 Train: 350 Bus/tram/metro: 407 Scooter: 163 Bike: 4041 Walk: 2702 Other: 242 Source: https://www.ad.nl/ad-werkt/auto-populairste-vervoermiddel-naar-werk-ook-voor-korte-stukjes~ad580edc/121361624/ https://www.ad.nl/ad-werkt/auto-populairste-vervoermiddel-na...
- Someone 6y ago
  > What other means of transportation would one use for short distances Uber (half-joking) In large parts of the USA, cities are cut into small parts by wide 50-mile per hour streets, it’s illegal (and dangerous to try, if not made impossible by barriers in the middle of the street) to cross streets between road crossings, road crossings are a quarter of a mile or so apart, and there aren’t any cycling facilities. Those wide roads often don’t have sidewalks. Also, as to ease of parking: the USA loves parking space, for cars (https://www.mba.org/documents/18806_research_riha_parking_report%20(1).pdf https://www.mba.org/documents/18806_research_riha_parking_re...) That makes cities larger, further discouraging cycling and walking.
Vinnl 6y ago
Related: a YouTube channel with lots of small videos highlighting small parts of Dutch (cycling) infrastructure that save lives. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A
tnolet 6y ago
I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the video mentions somewhere, this is the result of hardcore decision making since the 60ties. Not an overnight succes.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?
  - itronitron 6y ago
    It was normal in the US in the 70s and 80s for young children to walk (and maybe bike) to school. Definitely not normal now unless they are being escorted by a parent or babysitter. A lot depends on where the school is sited relative to the students' homes and the trend in the US is for schools to be on very large lots and surrounded by parking lots.
  - mrsuprawsm 6y ago
    At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
      *laughs in My First Errand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently. I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities. It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adults always know better, and must make every decision for them.”.
bokchoi 6y ago
This was from 2013. Here is a recent blog post about a street redesign on a busy road in Seattle that was very successful in preventing accidents. https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2020/09/17/report-ne-65th-street-bike-lanes-have-saved-lives-and-prevented-serious-injuries/ https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2020/09/17/report-ne-65th-st... Driving on this road before the redesign was very strange -- it was essentially two-lane but without stripes and no explicit bike lane. Since the redesign, the turn lanes, bus stops, and bike lanes are clearly marked and it has lead to a significant decrease in accidents.
aequitas 6y ago
I havn't watched the entire video so I don't know if it is mentioned, but one important factor imho is our traffic law protecting pedestrians and cyclist from motorised traffic[0]. Which basically boils down to that any non motorized traffic participant will get benefit of the doubt when determining blame in collisions or other traffic accidents over a motorized participant. Due to this, right of way laws work for cyclist/pedestrians, instead of them just being coerced by cars into giving up their right of way or place on the road. [0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artikel_185_Wegenverkeerswet https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artikel_185_Wegenverkeerswet
renewiltord 6y ago
In theory probably something but combine the fact that Europeans are incredibly supercilious about this stuff and Americans are incredibly defensive about this and I don't think Seattle is going to change that much.
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  What would an average American care if we are proud of our infrastructure or not? I think it has a lot more to do with Americans not paying enough taxes to make this worth considering.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Inexplicably it matters a lot because people behave to only buy those things. It's why you get CA HSR (a project that's already pie in the sky) reporting that they'll use a signaling system like nothing else in the world. How about just doing something that's like everything else in the world? Doesn't sell. NIH syndrome is America. But that's okay, that's why startups happen here more often.
    - spiderfarmer 6y ago
      America's misplaced pride might get in the way of some things, sure. But that's just dancing around the root cause: most Americans value low taxes above good infrastructure
deugtniet 6y ago
Great to see Groningen represented so much in this video. I think about 50% of all traffic movements are by bike in this city. This includes walking, so IMO it's pretty special. The urban planning in this town has been the product of decades of bike and pedestrian friendly planning. Making the city really nice to live in. It probably takes decades to convert a car centric city like Seattle into something like Groningen. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive for it. It makes a city much more friendly to live in, makes the population healthier and is more sustainable on the environment.
teekert 6y ago
Sometimes on fora I encounter pretty hostile attitudes towards bikes/bikers in the US, things like: They claim the road! They are dangerous! They claim the pavement! And I'm looking at the movies and pictures thinking, but where else can they be? In the Netherlands everybody is a biker at least some of the time and a driver at other times. A hostile attitude towards a biker is just simply very weird to see and read about. It's like people being hostile to someone for breathing your air or something.
- ljf 6y ago
  I once read something similar about France. Most young people will start by cycling to see friends and get about, change to a moped when they have the money, and then one day maybe have a car. So when you see a cyclist they are very much 'you' and not 'other' - there is also great support of the French cycling team and local teams, so there is a feeling of pride when you see cyclist out. I can only speak for the UK, people certainly see you (on a bike) as something that is impeding their journey, rather than a fellow human getting to work/out to enjoy the location. I've been told so many times that I don't pay for the roads (I do) and that I'm slowing them down - in London while you might overtake a cyclist they will certainly catch you up at the next light.
- rocgf 6y ago
  This attitude towards cyclists is somewhat universal outside a few cycling-friendly countries, it is not US specific by any means. Cyclists are always seen as a nuisance, since they block the road for the "real" traffic. Cycling lanes are also somewhat rare outside the Netherlands and Denmark, so bikes and cars almost always share the road. I have a particular pet peeve, which is the term "cycling city". I see it everywhere because it is sexy to proclaim that bikes are on your priority list as mayor/government. As an example, in Manchester (UK) the mayor has proclaimed that Manchester will be a cycling city, yet bike lanes are rarely included in new projects. There was a redevelopment for one of the larger streets in Manchester, obviously without _any_ consideration for bikes. If you want cycling cities, there are a few scattered around Europe, but nothing compared to the Netherlands and Denmark. The rest is just bs.
- stasiu 6y ago
stasiu 6y ago
Not Just Bikes is a great YouTube channel about cycling infrastructure in (mostly) Amsterdam. Being Dutch I never realised how much attention there is for safe and smooth traffic in The Netherlands. Being abroad right now I see that its not obvious. https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos

35 points by luu 6y ago

I must say that I find it rather odd that apparently it is “phænomenal” that 25% of all trips are by bike. What other means of transportation would one use for short distances where a bike is simply faster than a car due to ease of parking? Personally, however, I use a skateboard fitted with 100 mm all terrain wheels for even greater ease of parking.

dairylee 6y ago
For myself, in the UK, it's not about which mode of transport is faster but which mode of transport is safer.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  It is truly unsafe to take a bicycle in the U.K.?
  - dmitri1981 6y ago
    Depends where you are. London is starting to get some good cycling lanes and some junctions are having traffic rerouted to make it safer for cyclists. Sadly in many other places cycling only really works for confident riders. Lots of drivers are either unaware of cyclists or downright aggressive. I would have near misses on a weekly basis. Things are getting better but very slowly.
    - wooger 6y ago
      And in our other cities it's still way cheaper (and socially acceptable) to drive in from the suburbs and park. There are car parks literally 200m from the centre of Birmingham where you can park all day for less than 10 pounds, and cheaper still nearby. Things are starting to change (oddly during COVID) by addition of bus gates, but they're making very slow progress. We've already delayed and diluted our congestion charge multiple times.
  - armada651 6y ago
    As a Dutch person who lived in the UK for a year, yes. Bicycle lanes are nearly non-existent outside of London and the boroughs seem to be hostile to the idea in general. The few bicycle lanes you do find often end as abruptly as they start, there's nothing connecting them and there are no bicycle crossings when you meet a road. However if you get a mountain bike and stick to the dirt roads along the rivers and hills, it is a great place to enjoy cycling through the countryside. One of the best bike trips I've done is cycling for 30 miles along the Thames river. So the UK is great for scenic cycling, terrible for a cycling commute. And yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure.
    - DrBazza 6y ago
      > Yes, any Dutch expat you meet is silently judging your country on the safety of its cycling infrastructure. And so you should. The UK's cycling infrastructure is embarrassingly bad. An example. Local to me, recently, the government spent over £100m on a new road junction, to replace an old one. One of the main reasons that they had to build a new junction was that they claimed they could not remove traffic lights from the roundabout to improve traffic because pedestrians and cyclists both crossed the junction at 'street level'. A local cycle organization submitted a proposal with modelling (I can't find the link atm.), that showed that the desired increase in capacity could be achieved by adding bridges for pedestrians and cyclists, removing traffic lights, and altering the road layout. And save about £90m. Needlessly to say, the junction was built. I have no idea whether their proposal was considered, or not, unless I submit a freedom of information request to the UK government. Regardless, the bridges should have been built anyway, because the junction is between two suburbs. The new junction did get a new cyclist/pedestrian bridge to replace the old one. Except it's about 1km further away from the suburbs that the previous junction, so adding 2km to bike journeys.
      - markvdb 6y ago
        Actually, bicycle tunnels - with a limited slope of course, like all other bicycle infrastructure - are recommended over bicycle bridges. These are more comfortable for cyclists. Gravity helps one cycle down, and the kinetic energy gained helps cyclists on the way up in the second half of the tunnel.
  - DrBazza 6y ago
    It depends, but yes. There are a lot of deaths each year, and the law is not in favour of the cyclist either. In fact, it gets worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708 Stay away from the cities, and it's generally safer, but at the same time you'll find cars doing 60 mph on single carriageway roads (the national speed limit), which can also be marked as a national cycle route. If you cycle somewhere where cars don't normally encounter cyclists, it can be "fun" as the motorists don't know how to behave. The trouble with the UK is that even so-called cycle paths are shared with footpaths, so pedestrians are all over the place, and cycle paths that are getting built as 'joint' footpaths, mean as a cyclist you also stop at every road junction. Compare that to Europe, where the cycle path is an additional lane next to the road/main carriageway and is usually physically separated in some way for safety. In the UK this has the unfortunate effect of making a large percentage of cyclist just us the road (which they are legally entitled to do), because the cycle path next to the road "stops" every 100 yards because there's a road joining the main carriageway that you have to cross.
    - phicoh 6y ago
      The side road can be restructured to give bikes priority. And put some good speedbumps on the side road to give cars a hint that they need to pay attention.
      - DrBazza 6y ago
        Agreed. They can, but they never are. For car drivers, the expectation is that they have right of way on a road, and they that come to a halt at the road junction, and not a few yards before it because there's a bike path crossing. Town planners/local planning departments are under so much pressure that they literally just end up ticking boxes, and rarely push back on house builders to change their site plans. The 'desire path' is a straight line, for both pedestrians and cyclists, yet new housing estates are allowed to put in bendy cyclepath/footpaths next to otherwise straight roads. It is ridiculous. Anything 'new' to car drivers in the UK is a problem. We definitely should try and change UK roads to be more bike friendly, but that's the reality. The new bike roundabout in Cambridge, unique in the UK, but common in Europe, and.... accidents: https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambridge-traffic-cyclist-involved-crash-19275730 https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambrid...
47r6dudh 6y ago
Personally I'd escooter everywhere if my own city hadn't hobbled them thoroughly (both dockless and personal). I respect the cycling community but it's just too much work for me and I imagine many similarly unambitious people.
- wooger 6y ago
  hobbled how? For me, the form factor of a battery powered lazy person's vehicle is not yet perfected, and they should be more akin to a sit-down vespa scooter than the current scooters. The centre of mass is just too high, the wheels too small. They should also be restricted to roads - as a cyclist I've never seen one ridden safely in a bike path, and I don't think standing allows for quick enough braking for the average user. Not to mention that in my country, outside of a few city specific rental deals, all scooters are illegal for use in public - so literally everyone on one is a dangerous criminal.
frederikvs 6y ago
Do take into account that there are places where infrastructure is designed primarily around cars. This means a.o. that wherever you want to go, there'll be pretty good parking really close by. Combine that with a lack of proper bike infrastructure. No bike racks anywhere in sight, so you have to dump your bike on the pavement, hoping nobody will give it a shove because it's in their way. No bike lanes, or if there are, they have angles and corners that are not realistic to take on a bike. Corners that have you swerving into the opposite lane if you take them at anything above 15 km/h. In those situations taking the car for short distances becomes the convenient, fast and safe thing to do. P.S. from your name I suspect you're Dutch. In that case you don't even have to go far to find that sort of situation. I live in Belgium, which is generally considered to be a rather bike friendly country. I beg to differ. Everything I describe above applies, at least in a region of a few kilometers around my house. I can only assume it also applies elsewhere in Belgium.
throwaway2245 6y ago
I wanted to argue against the 'Europeans are supercilious' comment, but this comment doesn't help. Dutch people do know that the extent of their bike lanes and infrastructure is incredible. I've only seen the new 'megafietsenstalling' at Den Haag Centraal train station complained about because 8000 bike parking spaces was not ambitious enough and is not expected to be enough space. And yet, it's the second largest in the world after Utrecht (also in the Netherlands). At a comparable train station in London, you would be lucky to find 10 bike parking spaces.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  > I wanted to argue against the 'Europeans are supercilious' comment, but this comment doesn't help. Dutch people do know that the extent of their bike lanes and infrastructure is incredible. Yet you will find many Dutchmen in this thread, including the comment you're replying to, that express that this is the first time in their lives they've given it thought. > I've only seen the new 'megafietsenstalling' at Den Haag Centraal train station complained about because 8000 bike parking spaces was not ambitious enough and is not expected to be enough space. And yet, it's the second largest in the world after Utrecht (also in the Netherlands). One of the many reasons I favor the skateboard over the bicycle — it joins me in the train. > At a comparable train station in London, you would be lucky to find 10 bike parking spaces. Well I have never been at a London train station. I've been at Belgian, German, and French ones, and I did not notice any particular difference that stood out.
- jules 6y ago
  At a busy time, the average stationsfietsenstalling is overfull and has -500 places, so that's why people complain :)
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    Of course! In London, it can just be expected that there is not anywhere appropriate to park. And, nobody cares to do anything about this, so it seems futile to complain.
jules 6y ago
Bike, walk, scooter, bus, train, car. Here's a breakdown (in million trips, 2016 numbers): Car as driver: 4854 Car as passenger: 2127 Train: 350 Bus/tram/metro: 407 Scooter: 163 Bike: 4041 Walk: 2702 Other: 242 Source: https://www.ad.nl/ad-werkt/auto-populairste-vervoermiddel-naar-werk-ook-voor-korte-stukjes~ad580edc/121361624/ https://www.ad.nl/ad-werkt/auto-populairste-vervoermiddel-na...
Someone 6y ago
> What other means of transportation would one use for short distances Uber (half-joking) In large parts of the USA, cities are cut into small parts by wide 50-mile per hour streets, it’s illegal (and dangerous to try, if not made impossible by barriers in the middle of the street) to cross streets between road crossings, road crossings are a quarter of a mile or so apart, and there aren’t any cycling facilities. Those wide roads often don’t have sidewalks. Also, as to ease of parking: the USA loves parking space, for cars (https://www.mba.org/documents/18806_research_riha_parking_report%20(1).pdf https://www.mba.org/documents/18806_research_riha_parking_re...) That makes cities larger, further discouraging cycling and walking.

Vinnl 6y ago

Related: a YouTube channel with lots of small videos highlighting small parts of Dutch (cycling) infrastructure that save lives. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A

tnolet 6y ago

I remember seeing this video some years ago and, as a Dutchman, was astounded how much I learned about the Dutch way of treating cyclists. It just seems so obvious and normal when you grow up in it. I started biking to school at age 6. No helmet, no parent accompanying. So did all my friends. Later, I had shitty jobs in far flung industrial areas. All had proper bike lanes. The list goes on. Remember though, as the video mentions somewhere, this is the result of hardcore decision making since the 60ties. Not an overnight succes.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Reading this comment, this is also the first time I realize that this is not normal. It is unusual globally for six year olds to cycle to school?
- itronitron 6y ago
  It was normal in the US in the 70s and 80s for young children to walk (and maybe bike) to school. Definitely not normal now unless they are being escorted by a parent or babysitter. A lot depends on where the school is sited relative to the students' homes and the trend in the US is for schools to be on very large lots and surrounded by parking lots.
- mrsuprawsm 6y ago
  At least in the UK, it would be very abnormal to either let your 6 year old child cycle to school, or to let them walk unaccompanied. Let alone both. Only when children reach about 11 would it be normal to allow them to travel unaccompanied.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    *laughs in My First Errand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMZp8KsZ5k It's fairly normal in Japan to let five year olds travel alone by train, apparently. I have to say I noticed before that the Anglo-Saxon often considers the minor to be seemingly mentally deficient and incapable of making the most basic choices and having the most basic responsibilities. It's too much of a culture of “Children are incapable; adults always know better, and must make every decision for them.”.

bokchoi 6y ago

This was from 2013. Here is a recent blog post about a street redesign on a busy road in Seattle that was very successful in preventing accidents. https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2020/09/17/report-ne-65th-street-bike-lanes-have-saved-lives-and-prevented-serious-injuries/ https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2020/09/17/report-ne-65th-st... Driving on this road before the redesign was very strange -- it was essentially two-lane but without stripes and no explicit bike lane. Since the redesign, the turn lanes, bus stops, and bike lanes are clearly marked and it has lead to a significant decrease in accidents.

aequitas 6y ago

I havn't watched the entire video so I don't know if it is mentioned, but one important factor imho is our traffic law protecting pedestrians and cyclist from motorised traffic[0]. Which basically boils down to that any non motorized traffic participant will get benefit of the doubt when determining blame in collisions or other traffic accidents over a motorized participant. Due to this, right of way laws work for cyclist/pedestrians, instead of them just being coerced by cars into giving up their right of way or place on the road. [0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artikel_185_Wegenverkeerswet https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artikel_185_Wegenverkeerswet

renewiltord 6y ago

In theory probably something but combine the fact that Europeans are incredibly supercilious about this stuff and Americans are incredibly defensive about this and I don't think Seattle is going to change that much.

spiderfarmer 6y ago
What would an average American care if we are proud of our infrastructure or not? I think it has a lot more to do with Americans not paying enough taxes to make this worth considering.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Inexplicably it matters a lot because people behave to only buy those things. It's why you get CA HSR (a project that's already pie in the sky) reporting that they'll use a signaling system like nothing else in the world. How about just doing something that's like everything else in the world? Doesn't sell. NIH syndrome is America. But that's okay, that's why startups happen here more often.
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    America's misplaced pride might get in the way of some things, sure. But that's just dancing around the root cause: most Americans value low taxes above good infrastructure

deugtniet 6y ago

Great to see Groningen represented so much in this video. I think about 50% of all traffic movements are by bike in this city. This includes walking, so IMO it's pretty special. The urban planning in this town has been the product of decades of bike and pedestrian friendly planning. Making the city really nice to live in. It probably takes decades to convert a car centric city like Seattle into something like Groningen. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive for it. It makes a city much more friendly to live in, makes the population healthier and is more sustainable on the environment.

teekert 6y ago

Sometimes on fora I encounter pretty hostile attitudes towards bikes/bikers in the US, things like: They claim the road! They are dangerous! They claim the pavement! And I'm looking at the movies and pictures thinking, but where else can they be? In the Netherlands everybody is a biker at least some of the time and a driver at other times. A hostile attitude towards a biker is just simply very weird to see and read about. It's like people being hostile to someone for breathing your air or something.

ljf 6y ago
I once read something similar about France. Most young people will start by cycling to see friends and get about, change to a moped when they have the money, and then one day maybe have a car. So when you see a cyclist they are very much 'you' and not 'other' - there is also great support of the French cycling team and local teams, so there is a feeling of pride when you see cyclist out. I can only speak for the UK, people certainly see you (on a bike) as something that is impeding their journey, rather than a fellow human getting to work/out to enjoy the location. I've been told so many times that I don't pay for the roads (I do) and that I'm slowing them down - in London while you might overtake a cyclist they will certainly catch you up at the next light.
rocgf 6y ago
This attitude towards cyclists is somewhat universal outside a few cycling-friendly countries, it is not US specific by any means. Cyclists are always seen as a nuisance, since they block the road for the "real" traffic. Cycling lanes are also somewhat rare outside the Netherlands and Denmark, so bikes and cars almost always share the road. I have a particular pet peeve, which is the term "cycling city". I see it everywhere because it is sexy to proclaim that bikes are on your priority list as mayor/government. As an example, in Manchester (UK) the mayor has proclaimed that Manchester will be a cycling city, yet bike lanes are rarely included in new projects. There was a redevelopment for one of the larger streets in Manchester, obviously without _any_ consideration for bikes. If you want cycling cities, there are a few scattered around Europe, but nothing compared to the Netherlands and Denmark. The rest is just bs.
stasiu 6y ago

stasiu 6y ago

Not Just Bikes is a great YouTube channel about cycling infrastructure in (mostly) Amsterdam. Being Dutch I never realised how much attention there is for safe and smooth traffic in The Netherlands. Being abroad right now I see that its not obvious. https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos