7 ms·

No, America is listed 27th in the world as far as economic mobility, behind most other highly industrialized, democratic countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

No, America is listed 27th in the world as far as economic mobility, behind most other highly industrialized, democratic countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index' As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile, I think this is a very interesting and sad aspect of American life. Especially how it is perceived vs the reality.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile Are you in the US? Because only there you have such high mobility. Good luck getting in the top quintile in Europe if you were born in the bottom. That is what real economic mobility looks like. Sure, Europe does better in these statistics, but in the real world, US gives its workers way better odds at getting to the top and that's coming from an European.
- karpierz 6y ago
  I'm confused, the evidence clearly indicates that in this world, the US has much lower economic mobility than Europe. Which real world are you talking about?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    What proof is there that the formula used to compile that ranking actually reflects real world economic mobility? Just because statistics say you shouldn't be poor doesn't mean you can't be poor. Just because statistically there is no racism in your area doesn't mean you won't get discriminated and deprived of opportunities. Because the when certain metrics are used to compile a formula that leads to any ranking, then those parameters are subject to gaming in order to meet an expected result so those statistics are meaningless at the end of the day when you can't move past a certain wage/social class due to the artificial barriers set by a feudal leadership. Statistically, the unemployment rate in my country should be about 2% while realistically it's much higher since the government doesn't count certain classes of people in odder to make the numbers look god in statistics for the EU. Anecdotally, my acquaintances who emigrated from the former soviet bloc to North Ameriac and Australia ended up with much more wealth to their name including their own houses vs the ones who moved to Western Europe who basically ended up as serfs to be renters for life. Do you see the problem with statistics as evidence? They don't tell the whole story.
    - pizza234 6y ago
      > Anecdotally, my acquaintances who emigrated from the former soviet bloc It's difficult to generalize the wealth of Europe, so this is not strictly wrong, but it's not strictly correct, either. Northern countries (at the end of the spectrum, Scandinavian nations) are typically far richer and with more stable job positions than the eastern/southern.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        >Northern countries [..] are typically far richer Rich country != rich citizens. Look at Germany, it's the country and the mega conglomerates with their executives that are rich. The median wealth of Germans is among the lowest in EU: https://www.piie.com/sites/default/files/images/f/kirkegaard20130425-1.pdf https://www.piie.com/sites/default/files/images/f/kirkegaard...
        alexgmcm 6y ago
        That data seems really suspicious as looking at salaries in Italy/Spain I find it hard to believe Germany is so much poorer (even in the mean, let alone the median). Although I checked the data here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... and it agrees more or less with that graph. That's so weird and totally non-intuitive. I wonder what the cause is? EDIT: It seems income inequality isn't so bad, but wealth inequality is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... I guess this is due to low rates of home ownership in Germany causing wealth to be concentrated among relatively few landlords?
        brazzy 6y ago
        That statistic is highly misleading. The median wealth in Germany is low due to a low rate of home ownership. But disposable income (purchasing power adjusted) is the highest in the entire EU (data missing for some countries, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Norway may be higher): https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/graph.do?tab=graph&plugin=0&pcode=tec00113&language=en&toolbox=type https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/graph.do?tab=graph&plugin=...
  - csomar 6y ago
    I think I understand the parent poster. This is just my opinion, and it's relatively limited. But I think the US gives you incredible mobility if you are exceptionally talented and hard-working. Not much for Europe, however, Europe is probably better for your average guy; while the US is ruthless for less capable people. If you are hard-working and talented, this might skew your view about mobility in the US/EU.
  - phil21 6y ago
    Europe flattens the pareto curve more than the US does, is my non-nuanced observation.
- Bvalmont1 6y ago
  In Europe we have cheap, accessible education, that alone will amount to more social mobility than anything happening in the US. I know what you mean, it's harder to get "rich" in Europe, but in terms of going from lower class to middle or upper middle class I think that's easier to achieve in Europe compared to the US.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    It's not harder, it's absolutely impossible for a huge portion of the EU population (the eastern half, basically). In the USA the economy enables even the poorest people to start selling at scale and for much bigger margins, and to get investment capital easily and way more of it. In the USA even the poorest people can own property in big cities, that's absolutely not the case in eastern EU, poor people are locked to small towns and villages here.
    - toyg 6y ago
      I think there is a terminology disconnect here. Typically people mean “Western Europe” when discussing wealth indicators. Eastern Europe is a specific case that suffered from a few “lost” decades, it accounts for less than a fourth of the EU population, and as much as it’s catching up fairly quickly, it still lags behind quite significantly and is not representative of “European” wealth indicators.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        They mean northwest Europe. Nobody on HN is tripping over themselves to compare the US to Italy, Greece or even Spain. At that point why compare to the US though? If the comparisons exclude former communist Europe and poor Mediterranean Europe from then why not exclude rust belt American and Appalachia from comparisons?
        inglor_cz 6y ago
        As a Czech traveling around Spain, Andalucia felt poorer to me than CZ, and way more hopeless. The local unemployment rate was just terrible even before Covid. A lot of people rented out their only spare, tiny room on AirBNB because they had to.
- bb123 6y ago
  >Sure, Europe does better in these statistics, but in the real world, US gives its workers way better odds at getting to the top and that's coming from an European. This quote screams brainwashing by American media to me. Americans (and those that consume their media) are told from childhood that they are the only country where it is possible to move from the bottom to the top. Outside observers can clearly see that this is not the case, but when presented with hard evidence to the contrary it is simply dismissed as some untruth without any critical thought.
  - JackFr 6y ago
    Proud American here. I don’t love that WEF study and I could spend a lot of time picking nits with its methodology, but for the sake of argument, let’s accept it as broadly true. Why do Americans believe what we do? It is partial brainwashing by the media. But it is also a very real national story of immigration for economic activity. The foreign born population of the United States is currently around 40-50 million the majority of whom are citizens or permanent residents. That’s a lot. New York is a representative gateway city. The percent of the population of New York City which is foreign born was 36% in 1900. It was also 36% in 2000. These are people who came here for economic opportunity. Their lived experience is that the US afforded this opportunity. Now certainly the US isn’t the only country that offers such an opportunity, but we’ve been doing it for a while. We’ve had waves of immigration come from Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, Ireland and the U.K., East Asia, South Asia and Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean. My grandmother came as an immigrant from Germany, off a farm with a grade school education and worked as a nanny on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I now live on the Upper West Side and my kids nanny from Guyana got her citizenship about five years ago. (And she literally lives on the same block in Queens my Scottish grandmother did when her family came over.) And there’s nothing special about my story. It’s fairly typical. That report cited in the parent shows a statistic that it would take on average 5 generations to move from the lowest income group to the median. I have no reason to doubt it. But I believe that largely is a story of slavery, racism, Jim Crow and the economic backwardness (until they 1970’s) of the American south. It’s shameful. You can understand why we might not want to celebrate it, preferring to look at the voluntary immigrant story.
  - d1zzy 6y ago
julienb_sea 6y ago
That index is primarily not based on economic mobility. If you open up its wikipedia page the actual economic mobility related to income and resulting wage class is only one of the contributing factors. European policy choices such as socialized healthcare and a tax regime which constrains high-wealth business have an equalizing effect on many of the measurements indicated in the social mobility index. As such, I would not place excessive stock in this particular measure when it comes to actual economic mobility between social class.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile Are you in the US? Because only there you have such high mobility. Good luck getting in the top quintile in Europe if you were born in the bottom. That is what real economic mobility looks like. Sure, Europe does better in these statistics, but in the real world, US gives its workers way better odds at getting to the top and that's coming from an European.

karpierz 6y ago
I'm confused, the evidence clearly indicates that in this world, the US has much lower economic mobility than Europe. Which real world are you talking about?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  What proof is there that the formula used to compile that ranking actually reflects real world economic mobility? Just because statistics say you shouldn't be poor doesn't mean you can't be poor. Just because statistically there is no racism in your area doesn't mean you won't get discriminated and deprived of opportunities. Because the when certain metrics are used to compile a formula that leads to any ranking, then those parameters are subject to gaming in order to meet an expected result so those statistics are meaningless at the end of the day when you can't move past a certain wage/social class due to the artificial barriers set by a feudal leadership. Statistically, the unemployment rate in my country should be about 2% while realistically it's much higher since the government doesn't count certain classes of people in odder to make the numbers look god in statistics for the EU. Anecdotally, my acquaintances who emigrated from the former soviet bloc to North Ameriac and Australia ended up with much more wealth to their name including their own houses vs the ones who moved to Western Europe who basically ended up as serfs to be renters for life. Do you see the problem with statistics as evidence? They don't tell the whole story.
  - pizza234 6y ago
    > Anecdotally, my acquaintances who emigrated from the former soviet bloc It's difficult to generalize the wealth of Europe, so this is not strictly wrong, but it's not strictly correct, either. Northern countries (at the end of the spectrum, Scandinavian nations) are typically far richer and with more stable job positions than the eastern/southern.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      >Northern countries [..] are typically far richer Rich country != rich citizens. Look at Germany, it's the country and the mega conglomerates with their executives that are rich. The median wealth of Germans is among the lowest in EU: https://www.piie.com/sites/default/files/images/f/kirkegaard20130425-1.pdf https://www.piie.com/sites/default/files/images/f/kirkegaard...
      - alexgmcm 6y ago
        That data seems really suspicious as looking at salaries in Italy/Spain I find it hard to believe Germany is so much poorer (even in the mean, let alone the median). Although I checked the data here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... and it agrees more or less with that graph. That's so weird and totally non-intuitive. I wonder what the cause is? EDIT: It seems income inequality isn't so bad, but wealth inequality is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... I guess this is due to low rates of home ownership in Germany causing wealth to be concentrated among relatively few landlords?
      - brazzy 6y ago
        That statistic is highly misleading. The median wealth in Germany is low due to a low rate of home ownership. But disposable income (purchasing power adjusted) is the highest in the entire EU (data missing for some countries, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Norway may be higher): https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/graph.do?tab=graph&plugin=0&pcode=tec00113&language=en&toolbox=type https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/graph.do?tab=graph&plugin=...
- csomar 6y ago
  I think I understand the parent poster. This is just my opinion, and it's relatively limited. But I think the US gives you incredible mobility if you are exceptionally talented and hard-working. Not much for Europe, however, Europe is probably better for your average guy; while the US is ruthless for less capable people. If you are hard-working and talented, this might skew your view about mobility in the US/EU.
- phil21 6y ago
  Europe flattens the pareto curve more than the US does, is my non-nuanced observation.
Bvalmont1 6y ago
In Europe we have cheap, accessible education, that alone will amount to more social mobility than anything happening in the US. I know what you mean, it's harder to get "rich" in Europe, but in terms of going from lower class to middle or upper middle class I think that's easier to achieve in Europe compared to the US.
- emteycz 6y ago
  It's not harder, it's absolutely impossible for a huge portion of the EU population (the eastern half, basically). In the USA the economy enables even the poorest people to start selling at scale and for much bigger margins, and to get investment capital easily and way more of it. In the USA even the poorest people can own property in big cities, that's absolutely not the case in eastern EU, poor people are locked to small towns and villages here.
  - toyg 6y ago
    I think there is a terminology disconnect here. Typically people mean “Western Europe” when discussing wealth indicators. Eastern Europe is a specific case that suffered from a few “lost” decades, it accounts for less than a fourth of the EU population, and as much as it’s catching up fairly quickly, it still lags behind quite significantly and is not representative of “European” wealth indicators.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      They mean northwest Europe. Nobody on HN is tripping over themselves to compare the US to Italy, Greece or even Spain. At that point why compare to the US though? If the comparisons exclude former communist Europe and poor Mediterranean Europe from then why not exclude rust belt American and Appalachia from comparisons?
      - inglor_cz 6y ago
        As a Czech traveling around Spain, Andalucia felt poorer to me than CZ, and way more hopeless. The local unemployment rate was just terrible even before Covid. A lot of people rented out their only spare, tiny room on AirBNB because they had to.
bb123 6y ago
>Sure, Europe does better in these statistics, but in the real world, US gives its workers way better odds at getting to the top and that's coming from an European. This quote screams brainwashing by American media to me. Americans (and those that consume their media) are told from childhood that they are the only country where it is possible to move from the bottom to the top. Outside observers can clearly see that this is not the case, but when presented with hard evidence to the contrary it is simply dismissed as some untruth without any critical thought.
- JackFr 6y ago
  Proud American here. I don’t love that WEF study and I could spend a lot of time picking nits with its methodology, but for the sake of argument, let’s accept it as broadly true. Why do Americans believe what we do? It is partial brainwashing by the media. But it is also a very real national story of immigration for economic activity. The foreign born population of the United States is currently around 40-50 million the majority of whom are citizens or permanent residents. That’s a lot. New York is a representative gateway city. The percent of the population of New York City which is foreign born was 36% in 1900. It was also 36% in 2000. These are people who came here for economic opportunity. Their lived experience is that the US afforded this opportunity. Now certainly the US isn’t the only country that offers such an opportunity, but we’ve been doing it for a while. We’ve had waves of immigration come from Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, Ireland and the U.K., East Asia, South Asia and Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean. My grandmother came as an immigrant from Germany, off a farm with a grade school education and worked as a nanny on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I now live on the Upper West Side and my kids nanny from Guyana got her citizenship about five years ago. (And she literally lives on the same block in Queens my Scottish grandmother did when her family came over.) And there’s nothing special about my story. It’s fairly typical. That report cited in the parent shows a statistic that it would take on average 5 generations to move from the lowest income group to the median. I have no reason to doubt it. But I believe that largely is a story of slavery, racism, Jim Crow and the economic backwardness (until they 1970’s) of the American south. It’s shameful. You can understand why we might not want to celebrate it, preferring to look at the voluntary immigrant story.
- d1zzy 6y ago

julienb_sea 6y ago

That index is primarily not based on economic mobility. If you open up its wikipedia page the actual economic mobility related to income and resulting wage class is only one of the contributing factors. European policy choices such as socialized healthcare and a tax regime which constrains high-wealth business have an equalizing effect on many of the measurements indicated in the social mobility index. As such, I would not place excessive stock in this particular measure when it comes to actual economic mobility between social class.