4 ms·

I'm sure if a team of skilled driver/mechanic hybrids was the difference between a mediocre or failed business, and multi-multi-million-dollar paydays, the mark

I'm sure if a team of skilled driver/mechanic hybrids was the difference between a mediocre or failed business, and multi-multi-million-dollar paydays, the market would be much more competitive and employers would feel the need to have such outsized "obligatories." In other words, the subtle critique of the job market isn't really accurate. "What if clowns were hired like programmers?" "What if Wal-Mart greeters were hired like programmers?" Invalid. More precise would be, "What if [carpenters|plumbers|machinists|general contractors] were hired like programmers?" The writeup on that topic wouldn't be quite so snarky, I think.

DrCatbox 15y ago
I think the article is alluding to the wide span of requirements which is quite impossible to achieve in any field, even if you are a programmer. But thats not really the case in the real world, altough I have seen some job ads like that, where they sought people with experience in x86 assembly, C# and database modelling as well as front-end development.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  I know what it's alluding to. It's just 1). silly to compare hiring a programmer to hiring a car driver for many reasons and 2). very unlikely anyone would hire a job posting for a [front-end dev|HTML&CSS|customer support] (choose your own metaphor) who has experience in kernel programming, which is what this faulty metaphor is alluding to. It may happen, but I'd be surprised if it's regular enough to be considered how programmers are hired.
  - losethos 15y ago
    Hacker News is for entrepreneurs. I'm a start-up and do kernel programming as well as html and answerring the phone. http://www.losethos.com http://www.losethos.com
  - Tangaroa 15y ago
    The link exaggerates, but web developer positions often require knowledge of every tool in the chain from the server to Photoshop and Flash. You have to be the front-end art guy and the front-end implementation guy and the back-end coder and the DBA and the system administrator, for $10-$12 per hour or less if it's a fixed-payment contract.
    - mattdeboard 15y ago
      Really? $10-12/hr? That's about what my internship pays. I've seen ridiculous job listings ("Developer needed -- M.S. in Computer Science required, PhD preferred"-type listing for what seem to be pretty standard programming jobs), but I assume they were paying significantly more than $10/12 hr
      - Tangaroa 15y ago
        My memory for the wage scale was stuck around 2002-2003, so add a decade's worth of inflation.
        mattdeboard 15y ago
        With all respect, I think either the salary or the requirements have been exaggerated in the retelling since then.
    - radagaisus 15y ago
      10$-12$ an hour? really? it's less then I got when I was seventeen, and I don't even live in the US.
      - Deestan 15y ago
        In Norway, you can actually be sentenced to jail for paying those wages. Though I've only seen fines being applied in practice.
- daeken 15y ago
  > I have seen some job ads like that, where they sought people with experience in x86 assembly, C# and database modelling as well as front-end development. Finding people with that combination of skills is impossible? Unlikely, sure, but... I have those skills. In fact, I did everything from x86 asm to Python to DB work to writing a complete web frontend in my last startup (while I was the only tech person). Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see this constellation of skills in a number of startup founders, where you have to wear many hats.
- bigiain 15y ago
  > I have seen some job ads like that, where they sought people with experience in x86 assembly, C# and database modelling as well as front-end development. When I read specific and unlikely combinations of required experience like that, I always think "I wonder who's had that ad written in support of their H1B application?"
larrys 15y ago
"I'm sure if a team of skilled driver/mechanic hybrids was the difference between a mediocre or failed business, and multi-multi-million-dollar paydays" That's because your buying into the meme stating a good programmer is worth 100 times more (totally arbitrary btw) a mediocre one. Or something like that. All this dates back to "Wozniak/Allen" can write a basic compiler in a weekend falacy. And of course the brass ring multi million dollar payday that everyone wants even if they go down in flames (and most of course will). The point being made seems to be that there is a tendency in help wanted advertising to try to get the entire kitchen sink.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  I'm not really sure it's a "meme" that the worth of a programmer is an exponential function of his skill. Seems like I've read that this is the case (not 100 times more, never heard that, that's your own rhetoric coloring your faulty interpretation of what I said) many times over from articles linked right here on HackerNews. I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not a skilled programmer is much, much more valuable than a mediocre/apathetic one, because that would be the world's silliest argument. A skilled anything is much, much more valuable than a mediocre and disinterested one.
  - larrys 15y ago
    What I'm referring to actually is an old quote attributed to Bill Gates : "A great lathe operator commands several times the wage of an average lathe operator, but a great writer of software code is worth 10,000 times the price of an average software writer." ...which I've seen variations of lately.
- ramanujan 15y ago
  There have been probably several hundred multimillion dollar acquisitions in the valley over the last 5-6 years. It's not that rare. And many of those were talent acquisitions. Which seems to support Mr. Deboard's point.
  - larrys 15y ago

DrCatbox 15y ago

I think the article is alluding to the wide span of requirements which is quite impossible to achieve in any field, even if you are a programmer. But thats not really the case in the real world, altough I have seen some job ads like that, where they sought people with experience in x86 assembly, C# and database modelling as well as front-end development.

mattdeboard 15y ago
I know what it's alluding to. It's just 1). silly to compare hiring a programmer to hiring a car driver for many reasons and 2). very unlikely anyone would hire a job posting for a [front-end dev|HTML&CSS|customer support] (choose your own metaphor) who has experience in kernel programming, which is what this faulty metaphor is alluding to. It may happen, but I'd be surprised if it's regular enough to be considered how programmers are hired.
- losethos 15y ago
  Hacker News is for entrepreneurs. I'm a start-up and do kernel programming as well as html and answerring the phone. http://www.losethos.com http://www.losethos.com
- Tangaroa 15y ago
  The link exaggerates, but web developer positions often require knowledge of every tool in the chain from the server to Photoshop and Flash. You have to be the front-end art guy and the front-end implementation guy and the back-end coder and the DBA and the system administrator, for $10-$12 per hour or less if it's a fixed-payment contract.
  - mattdeboard 15y ago
    Really? $10-12/hr? That's about what my internship pays. I've seen ridiculous job listings ("Developer needed -- M.S. in Computer Science required, PhD preferred"-type listing for what seem to be pretty standard programming jobs), but I assume they were paying significantly more than $10/12 hr
    - Tangaroa 15y ago
      My memory for the wage scale was stuck around 2002-2003, so add a decade's worth of inflation.
      - mattdeboard 15y ago
        With all respect, I think either the salary or the requirements have been exaggerated in the retelling since then.
  - radagaisus 15y ago
    10$-12$ an hour? really? it's less then I got when I was seventeen, and I don't even live in the US.
    - Deestan 15y ago
      In Norway, you can actually be sentenced to jail for paying those wages. Though I've only seen fines being applied in practice.
daeken 15y ago
> I have seen some job ads like that, where they sought people with experience in x86 assembly, C# and database modelling as well as front-end development. Finding people with that combination of skills is impossible? Unlikely, sure, but... I have those skills. In fact, I did everything from x86 asm to Python to DB work to writing a complete web frontend in my last startup (while I was the only tech person). Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see this constellation of skills in a number of startup founders, where you have to wear many hats.
bigiain 15y ago
> I have seen some job ads like that, where they sought people with experience in x86 assembly, C# and database modelling as well as front-end development. When I read specific and unlikely combinations of required experience like that, I always think "I wonder who's had that ad written in support of their H1B application?"

larrys 15y ago

"I'm sure if a team of skilled driver/mechanic hybrids was the difference between a mediocre or failed business, and multi-multi-million-dollar paydays" That's because your buying into the meme stating a good programmer is worth 100 times more (totally arbitrary btw) a mediocre one. Or something like that. All this dates back to "Wozniak/Allen" can write a basic compiler in a weekend falacy. And of course the brass ring multi million dollar payday that everyone wants even if they go down in flames (and most of course will). The point being made seems to be that there is a tendency in help wanted advertising to try to get the entire kitchen sink.

mattdeboard 15y ago
I'm not really sure it's a "meme" that the worth of a programmer is an exponential function of his skill. Seems like I've read that this is the case (not 100 times more, never heard that, that's your own rhetoric coloring your faulty interpretation of what I said) many times over from articles linked right here on HackerNews. I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not a skilled programmer is much, much more valuable than a mediocre/apathetic one, because that would be the world's silliest argument. A skilled anything is much, much more valuable than a mediocre and disinterested one.
- larrys 15y ago
  What I'm referring to actually is an old quote attributed to Bill Gates : "A great lathe operator commands several times the wage of an average lathe operator, but a great writer of software code is worth 10,000 times the price of an average software writer." ...which I've seen variations of lately.
ramanujan 15y ago
There have been probably several hundred multimillion dollar acquisitions in the valley over the last 5-6 years. It's not that rare. And many of those were talent acquisitions. Which seems to support Mr. Deboard's point.
- larrys 15y ago