7 ms·

Very cool! Also I’d hope to see Lyme in the mix. It’s so pervasive and creates all kinds of weird dietary and nervous system issues.

elil17 6y ago
We already have a Lyme disease vaccine. However, the manufacturer refuses to sell it for human use due to PR threats from conspiracy theorists. Unfortunately, creating vaccines is only half the battle. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  It's very odd that dogs can get vaccinated for Lyme but not humans...
  - peteretep 6y ago
    We can also have dogs "put to sleep" but not people. You can also keep a dog on a leash. If a dog dies, there's no need for a coroner's report. It's not _that_ odd that human and dog medicine are held to different levels of testing and safety.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > We can also have dogs "put to sleep" but not people. It's not like this is without controversy; it's an active political battle.
      - KraftKacke 6y ago
        I think this was rather implying we put down dogs, if they break too expensive to fix. The vaccine was probably grinding through loads of "pets" in development. Very different than "putting down" terminally ill people on their own choice and action. Tho, maybe similar to the eugenic endeavors of the past. I hope you're not implying that's what's in debate again.
    - gizmo686 6y ago
      > We can also have dogs "put to sleep" but not people. Depending on where you live, you can have humans "put to sleep" as well. It is legal in 9 US states, Canada, parts of Australlia, and probably otherplaces as well. > You can also keep a dog on a leash. Some people keep their children on a leash as well.
      - tshaddox 6y ago
        I think in most of those places you have to ask the human first.
        eyelidlessness 6y ago
        No, people just put their kids on leashes in public. It’s... well, wild but the opposite.
  - gbrown 6y ago
    You can orally actually vaccinate the reservoir species (mice) in targeted areas as well to disrupt the enzootic cycle.
  - hangonhn 6y ago
    Pets are considered property in all fifty states (Although in CA there are laws being proposed or even passed to change some of that). Any injuries or death to a pet only requires replacement cost.
  - throwaway13337 6y ago
    Agreed. I wonder about the trolley problem that is medical testing requirements. It seems like we, as a society, would tend to never want to pull the lever to save more at the cost of risking a few. Social and contractual liability makes it a bad trade. Acceptable risk is very low which can, paradoxically, cause more death and discomfort. It would be nice to see a greater awareness of the tradeoffs. These things tend to get emotional, though, so not much gets done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
    - rtpg 6y ago
      You can't make trolley problem tradeoffs when there's enough uncertainty involved in all the steps. Older medicine is filled with supposed cures to issues that cause issues down the road. We also have countless medical trials that show no positive effects on the disease it's trying to cure, and outright ill effects (both short term and long term). If we _did_ have visibility and a good understanding of the effects of stuff, you would think that Covid, of all things, would push at least some people more down this argument you are making. But basically everyone involved (including many many people who had extreme incentives to push a vaccine through) stuck to the trial discussions. I do understand the "Extenuating circumstances" argument. But this sort of massive generality reeks of Dunning-Krueger.
    - blackrock 6y ago
      Theoretical question here: Do you want to be the one sacrificial lamb that dies, in order for the rest of us to live? If you want to play Jesus here, then I’m sure the rest of society will support you.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        It isn't that stark though. There are current policy choices that result in statistical deaths. Other policy choices are quite likely to result in fewer statistical deaths, but you've somehow decided that the current policy is not even up for discussion.
    - tim333 6y ago
  - Symmetry 6y ago
    We've also have coronavirus vaccines for dogs for a long time. More tolerance for side effects means easier approval means more vaccines which haven't been proven safe to the standards we demand for use in humans.
- spijdar 6y ago
  I found that article very interesting, and think describing the pushback as PR threats from conspiracy theorists oversimplifies just a bit. Aa mentioned in the article, it's very possible the vaccine triggers a rare, genetically associated autoimmune disorder normally caused by Lyme disease. It was also released roughly concurrently with at least one vaccine that was legitimately withdrawn for safety reasons. Compared to, say, the covid-19 vaccines, or the MMR vaccines, I find the public hesitation more understandable. It's not like a disease with an especially high mortality rate or one that's spread person to person. Not saying the push to shame it out of existence was right, since it sounds like the benefits outweighed the risks at least for some people, but there's a lot to unpack. Definitely worth a read.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    The argument I've always read is that it should be made available to people who live in areas with lots of ticks, not that it should be pushed on everyone.
    - touisteur 6y ago
      Yes, kind of like how you should get shots for yellow fever or tropical diseases when going on some trips. But if you begin saying you need shots to go in Poland, it's maybe not going to be accepted as easily as for tropical countries... BTW the side effects of the shots we give to go to French Guyane is something to behold. Roommate was literally covered with red dots and it itched like hell.
  - henearkr 6y ago
    Some serious theories to explain chronic Lyme precisely suggest that it is an autoimmune reaction caused by the bacteria biofilm proteins. That would explain both why the chronic Lyme can persist even after the bacteria have seemingly been eradicated, and the effects of the vaccine sometimes observed. In this case the vaccine's purpose is defeated, as the real life-spoiler is the chronic Lyme. Acute Lyme is well treated by the antibiotics.
  - KraftKacke 6y ago
- morpheuskafka 6y ago
  Isn't that exactly what the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is supposed to prevent, by isolating vaccine makers from liability in exchange for a 75-cent tax that funds a no-fault compensation program?
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I expect that the fear here would be that it'd be a PR disaster for the manufacturer, not a legal/financial one.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  This is misrepresenting the real limitation of the vaccine that dampened demand... > First, the vaccine efficacy of <80% meant that 20% of fully vaccinated individuals could still get Lyme disease [20]. Second, achieving full protection required three vaccine doses given at the time of the initial dose and 1 month and 12 months after the initial dose. Third, the vaccine safety and efficacy database lacked tests in young children, a population at high risk of developing Lyme disease [3]. Also the vaccine was effective only against the predominant North American Borrelia strain without necessarily conferring protection against international subspecies [16, 22]. Finally, uncertainty about the length of vaccine-induced immunity implied that recipients might need booster vaccine doses as often as every year to prevent waning immunity. The real underlying malicious behavior here was from the lawyers who actively recruited and fomented anti-vax culture... > The final agreement included over 1 million dollars in legal fees for the prosecuting lawyers, but provided no financial compensation to the ‘vaccine victims’.
danfo 6y ago
>It’s so pervasive and creates all kinds of weird dietary and nervous system issues. I am not an expert, but I think it would be amiss to omit the Lyme disease controversy with these statements. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4477530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4477530/ Lyme disease has a simple antibiotic treatment. The Lyme serology test has high false-positive rate. There might be many people who believe they have Lyme disease therefore sadly miss out on their actual diagnosis. >Even if CLD lacks biological legitimacy, its importance as a phenomenon can be monumental to the individual patient. This is because many if not most patients who believe they have this condition are suffering, in many cases for years. Many have undergone frustrating, expensive, and ultimately fruitless medical evaluations, and many have become quite disaffected with a medical system that has failed to provide answers, let alone relief. >Many patients referred for Lyme disease are ultimately found to have a rheumatologic or neurologic diagnosis. Rheumatologic diagnoses commonly misdiagnosed as Lyme disease include osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, degenerative diseases of the spine, and spondyloarthropathies. Some patients are found to have neurologic diseases, including multiple sclerosis, demyelinating diseases, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, neuropathies, and dementia. Some CLD advocates have argued that these various conditions are simply manifestations of Lyme disease, but these hypotheses are untenable.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  I still think it’s worth. The amount of life lost to people with chronic Lyme is significant, even if the number of infected is low.
  - miskin 6y ago
    But as the parent explained, many of these chronic Lyme patients may be just misdiagnosed. They believe they have Lyme, but the problem is some other disease.
    - henearkr 6y ago
      If chronic Lyme illness is caused by lingering bacteria hidding in the body's tissues, the real way to eliminate any doubts about alternate causes is precisely to get a Lyme vaccine. Then, if the symptoms persist, we could easily deduce that the cause is other. Except that one thing... the chronic Lyme could very well caused by an autoimmune side-effect (this is among the most serious explanations), in which case I don't think the vaccine would help.

elil17 6y ago

We already have a Lyme disease vaccine. However, the manufacturer refuses to sell it for human use due to PR threats from conspiracy theorists. Unfortunately, creating vaccines is only half the battle. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/

cycrutchfield 6y ago
It's very odd that dogs can get vaccinated for Lyme but not humans...
- peteretep 6y ago
  We can also have dogs "put to sleep" but not people. You can also keep a dog on a leash. If a dog dies, there's no need for a coroner's report. It's not _that_ odd that human and dog medicine are held to different levels of testing and safety.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > We can also have dogs "put to sleep" but not people. It's not like this is without controversy; it's an active political battle.
    - KraftKacke 6y ago
      I think this was rather implying we put down dogs, if they break too expensive to fix. The vaccine was probably grinding through loads of "pets" in development. Very different than "putting down" terminally ill people on their own choice and action. Tho, maybe similar to the eugenic endeavors of the past. I hope you're not implying that's what's in debate again.
  - gizmo686 6y ago
    > We can also have dogs "put to sleep" but not people. Depending on where you live, you can have humans "put to sleep" as well. It is legal in 9 US states, Canada, parts of Australlia, and probably otherplaces as well. > You can also keep a dog on a leash. Some people keep their children on a leash as well.
    - tshaddox 6y ago
      I think in most of those places you have to ask the human first.
      - eyelidlessness 6y ago
        No, people just put their kids on leashes in public. It’s... well, wild but the opposite.
- gbrown 6y ago
  You can orally actually vaccinate the reservoir species (mice) in targeted areas as well to disrupt the enzootic cycle.
- hangonhn 6y ago
  Pets are considered property in all fifty states (Although in CA there are laws being proposed or even passed to change some of that). Any injuries or death to a pet only requires replacement cost.
- throwaway13337 6y ago
  Agreed. I wonder about the trolley problem that is medical testing requirements. It seems like we, as a society, would tend to never want to pull the lever to save more at the cost of risking a few. Social and contractual liability makes it a bad trade. Acceptable risk is very low which can, paradoxically, cause more death and discomfort. It would be nice to see a greater awareness of the tradeoffs. These things tend to get emotional, though, so not much gets done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
  - rtpg 6y ago
    You can't make trolley problem tradeoffs when there's enough uncertainty involved in all the steps. Older medicine is filled with supposed cures to issues that cause issues down the road. We also have countless medical trials that show no positive effects on the disease it's trying to cure, and outright ill effects (both short term and long term). If we _did_ have visibility and a good understanding of the effects of stuff, you would think that Covid, of all things, would push at least some people more down this argument you are making. But basically everyone involved (including many many people who had extreme incentives to push a vaccine through) stuck to the trial discussions. I do understand the "Extenuating circumstances" argument. But this sort of massive generality reeks of Dunning-Krueger.
  - blackrock 6y ago
    Theoretical question here: Do you want to be the one sacrificial lamb that dies, in order for the rest of us to live? If you want to play Jesus here, then I’m sure the rest of society will support you.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      It isn't that stark though. There are current policy choices that result in statistical deaths. Other policy choices are quite likely to result in fewer statistical deaths, but you've somehow decided that the current policy is not even up for discussion.
  - tim333 6y ago
- Symmetry 6y ago
  We've also have coronavirus vaccines for dogs for a long time. More tolerance for side effects means easier approval means more vaccines which haven't been proven safe to the standards we demand for use in humans.
spijdar 6y ago
I found that article very interesting, and think describing the pushback as PR threats from conspiracy theorists oversimplifies just a bit. Aa mentioned in the article, it's very possible the vaccine triggers a rare, genetically associated autoimmune disorder normally caused by Lyme disease. It was also released roughly concurrently with at least one vaccine that was legitimately withdrawn for safety reasons. Compared to, say, the covid-19 vaccines, or the MMR vaccines, I find the public hesitation more understandable. It's not like a disease with an especially high mortality rate or one that's spread person to person. Not saying the push to shame it out of existence was right, since it sounds like the benefits outweighed the risks at least for some people, but there's a lot to unpack. Definitely worth a read.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  The argument I've always read is that it should be made available to people who live in areas with lots of ticks, not that it should be pushed on everyone.
  - touisteur 6y ago
    Yes, kind of like how you should get shots for yellow fever or tropical diseases when going on some trips. But if you begin saying you need shots to go in Poland, it's maybe not going to be accepted as easily as for tropical countries... BTW the side effects of the shots we give to go to French Guyane is something to behold. Roommate was literally covered with red dots and it itched like hell.
- henearkr 6y ago
  Some serious theories to explain chronic Lyme precisely suggest that it is an autoimmune reaction caused by the bacteria biofilm proteins. That would explain both why the chronic Lyme can persist even after the bacteria have seemingly been eradicated, and the effects of the vaccine sometimes observed. In this case the vaccine's purpose is defeated, as the real life-spoiler is the chronic Lyme. Acute Lyme is well treated by the antibiotics.
- KraftKacke 6y ago
morpheuskafka 6y ago
Isn't that exactly what the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is supposed to prevent, by isolating vaccine makers from liability in exchange for a 75-cent tax that funds a no-fault compensation program?
- kelnos 6y ago
  I expect that the fear here would be that it'd be a PR disaster for the manufacturer, not a legal/financial one.
koheripbal 6y ago
This is misrepresenting the real limitation of the vaccine that dampened demand... > First, the vaccine efficacy of <80% meant that 20% of fully vaccinated individuals could still get Lyme disease [20]. Second, achieving full protection required three vaccine doses given at the time of the initial dose and 1 month and 12 months after the initial dose. Third, the vaccine safety and efficacy database lacked tests in young children, a population at high risk of developing Lyme disease [3]. Also the vaccine was effective only against the predominant North American Borrelia strain without necessarily conferring protection against international subspecies [16, 22]. Finally, uncertainty about the length of vaccine-induced immunity implied that recipients might need booster vaccine doses as often as every year to prevent waning immunity. The real underlying malicious behavior here was from the lawyers who actively recruited and fomented anti-vax culture... > The final agreement included over 1 million dollars in legal fees for the prosecuting lawyers, but provided no financial compensation to the ‘vaccine victims’.

danfo 6y ago

>It’s so pervasive and creates all kinds of weird dietary and nervous system issues. I am not an expert, but I think it would be amiss to omit the Lyme disease controversy with these statements. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4477530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4477530/ Lyme disease has a simple antibiotic treatment. The Lyme serology test has high false-positive rate. There might be many people who believe they have Lyme disease therefore sadly miss out on their actual diagnosis. >Even if CLD lacks biological legitimacy, its importance as a phenomenon can be monumental to the individual patient. This is because many if not most patients who believe they have this condition are suffering, in many cases for years. Many have undergone frustrating, expensive, and ultimately fruitless medical evaluations, and many have become quite disaffected with a medical system that has failed to provide answers, let alone relief. >Many patients referred for Lyme disease are ultimately found to have a rheumatologic or neurologic diagnosis. Rheumatologic diagnoses commonly misdiagnosed as Lyme disease include osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, degenerative diseases of the spine, and spondyloarthropathies. Some patients are found to have neurologic diseases, including multiple sclerosis, demyelinating diseases, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, neuropathies, and dementia. Some CLD advocates have argued that these various conditions are simply manifestations of Lyme disease, but these hypotheses are untenable.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
I still think it’s worth. The amount of life lost to people with chronic Lyme is significant, even if the number of infected is low.
- miskin 6y ago
  But as the parent explained, many of these chronic Lyme patients may be just misdiagnosed. They believe they have Lyme, but the problem is some other disease.
  - henearkr 6y ago
    If chronic Lyme illness is caused by lingering bacteria hidding in the body's tissues, the real way to eliminate any doubts about alternate causes is precisely to get a Lyme vaccine. Then, if the symptoms persist, we could easily deduce that the cause is other. Except that one thing... the chronic Lyme could very well caused by an autoimmune side-effect (this is among the most serious explanations), in which case I don't think the vaccine would help.