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It is well known that an educated, free people are necessary for the functioning of democracy. It's part of the justification for the 1st Amendment. We have ne

It is well known that an educated, free people are necessary for the functioning of democracy. It's part of the justification for the 1st Amendment. We have new technologies which are being leveraged to intentionally misinform people, in a society that has degraded public education and raised the cost of higher education to levels prohibitive for the majority of the population, and as a result, the society (as a whole) is no longer sufficiently informed. So, how can democracy function if the citizens are not educated? It can't. We are now seeing the results of the effects mentioned above, and the tech companies in question are starting to realize it, and respond in only way they can, while still maintaining their own wealth and power.

rayiner 6y ago
The US is one of the most educated countries in the world! Only Korea and Canada are materially ahead of us in college attainment: https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/with-atlanta-mayor-vote-fabled-bipartisan-alliance-comes-end/5yX2nnMifu2RVBeOEjR46O/ https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/with... We’re way ahead of Germany or Italy. The America that sent a man to the moon had around 5% of people with a college degree.
- chillfox 6y ago
  Sure, but as someone not from the US it looks like that education ain't worth much in the US as you deliberately undermine peoples ability to learn critical thinking by teaching creationism in schools.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    This is a really funny accusation since: 1) We don’t teach any religion in schools. 2) Many highly advanced EU countries are required to teach religion in schools e.g. many German states: https://eftre.weebly.com/deutschland-germany.html https://eftre.weebly.com/deutschland-germany.html
    - chillfox 6y ago
      I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should believe in.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        > I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. We don't, and we legally cannot. > I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should believe in. That is more than is legally permissible in the U.S. And even if people don't perceive the education as saying "this is true" it still socializes kids in a shared religious history and helps them understand the people who still believe it. There is nothing comparable to this in the U.S.
        bun_at_work 6y ago
        You're right that religion isn't taught in US schools, however, it is promoted when schools and states work as hard as they can to exclude evolution from public school curriculums. This is effectively teaching the population religion in areas where religion is common and evolution is purged from the school books.
        rj_kidwin 6y ago
        Serious question: can you show evidence where this has actually taken place in the school curriculum in recent times? Anybody can advocate for anything, from wanting to teach Satanism and anti-vaxx science to GMOs cause cancer and "New Math", but the curriculum doesn't bend so easily since there are federal standards. Beyond fear mongering and "leftist memes", any real examples?
  - dionidium 6y ago
    All this comment demonstrates is that some bizarre narratives about the U.S. have taken hold. I went to a public high school in rural Missouri. We weren't taught creationism, for crying out loud. In fact, it would have been illegal for them to do so.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  This is not a very meaningful measure, given that the standards of a "college education" today are way lower than even a high-school education in e.g. the 19th century. Anti-intellectualism is not a new development or a result of the Internet; it has been somewhat common for quite some time, even among the self-proclaimed intellectual elite.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  Overeducation may itself be a problem: Elite overproduction, and especially overproduction of the youth with advanced degrees, continues unabated. Our institutions of higher education have been churning out law, MBA, and PhD degrees, many more than could be absorbed by the economy. In a Bloomberg View article published just a few days ago Noah Smith provides the numbers for the overproduction of PhDs (America Is Pumping Out Too Many Ph.D.s https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-04/america-is-pumping-out-too-many-ph-d-s https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-04/americ...). http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/the-storming-of-the-u-s-capitol/ http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/the-storming-of-the-u-s...
dcolkitt 6y ago
Prior to 1950, the median adult American did not have a high school education.[1] If your thesis is that modern-day Americans are too uneducated for democracy, then you'd have to conclude the same about nearly any point in our history. (Or any other democracy prior to a couple decades ago.) [1] https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf
- geofft 6y ago
  Prior to 1950 (and later), the US wasn't a democracy in the modern sense (as the ability of many citizens to vote was restricted either de jure or de facto), and there were plenty of organizations who were appealing to the uneducated fears of the American populace to keep it that way. Some of them even used mob violence and myths about a past era of greatness. So, yes.
- bun_at_work 6y ago
  Actually, my thesis isn't that Americans are too uneducated for democracy. It's that they are being manipulated by modern technology, which education in the US has failed to keep up with, resulting in the age of misinformation and "fake news." We live in a new era, the most stark difference being mass communication accessibility. This helps smart people become smarter, but it also helps smart people manipulate uneducated people. My personal thesis on the issues the US is facing involves far more than the systemic defunding of education, but also on economic issues, like how our monetary system has exported labor, leading to a larger class divide and the polarization we're seeing, as well as social media companies (and news companies) having an incentive to promote inflammatory content to generate ad revenue.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    Your point makes sense but it's not because of lack of education. Education won't change the natural distribution of intellect and education is often a form of indoctrination as well. The entire history of civilization is a few cold blooded psychopaths manipulating gullible people into doing whatever is needed. And if you think one side is better than the other you're on the receiving end too.
jsight 6y ago
> raised the cost of higher education to levels prohibitive for the majority of the population Do you think there was a time when the majority of the population were college educated? Or realistically had access to college education?
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  1945--1985 was arguably the high point. G.I. Bill and a rapid expansion of public university systems (inspired by the Sputnik scare --- see California's Master Plan by Clark Kerr), along with low or no tuitions. The tide began turning in the mid-to-late 1980s with rising tuition and a greatly increased reliance on loans.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Do you have some charts or data on degrees conferred per year as a percent of the population? Also, it looks like percent of the population with a degree is higher now than ever. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attainment-of-college-diploma-or-higher-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attai...
    - dredmorbius 6y ago
      US BLS, Census, ad NCES have comprehensive stats, with summaries at Wikipedia,[1] and whilst in overall numbers you're probably correct, there are some counterarguments. - Through the 1960s and possibly early 1970s, a solidly middle-class lifestyle remained possible without a college education. Apprentice and vocational tracks were abundant and viable. - US Census data show a Bachellors-level local maximum attainment of about 25% in 1977, not exceeded until the mid-1990s. - Many (though not all) who wanted a degree could get one. Money certainly wasn't the barrier. Yes, it helped (a lot) to be white and male, but former income and class barriers had fallen. By the 1960s, most undergrad programmes were fully co-ed, by the 1970s, graduate and professional. By the 1980s, both were female-majority in many schools if not outright overall. - Debt loads on graduation were effectively nil at public schools. It was possible to study, work part-time, and save a little. On graduation, options were far more open for exploration, public service, volunteering ... or hedonism. This was a high point for Peace Corps work. - Grad school was opening up tremendously. - Academic positions for those grad students were numerous, in large part due to the rapid campus expansion. Today's colleges deliver more graduates, both absolutely and as a fraction of population. But as with automobiles and smartphones, what was once an optional luxury has become a necessity: many basic jobs request (though not all require) a degree. Debt loads are crushing. Secondary education quality is widely perceived as lower, and graduation rates there are effectively unchanged from the 1950s (whites) or early 1970s (all). What variation does exist largely trades graduation rates for aptitude levels. There have always been some graduates who wind up in jobs that don’t require a college degree. But the share seems to be growing. In 1970, only 1 in 100 taxi drivers and chauffeurs in the U.S. had a college degree, according to an analysis of labor statistics by Ohio University’s Richard Vedder, Christopher Denhart and Jonathan Robe. Today [2013], 15 of 100 do. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-driving-taxis-.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-col... So ... yeah, today more people get a college degree, because they must, with possibly worse quality, far higher direct cost, and more constrained options. Is this really progress? I'd explored dimensions of this topic a few years ago, output here: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/search?q=education&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/search?q=education&rest... ________________________________ Notes: 1. Try NCES: https://nces.ed.gov https://nces.ed.gov Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_... Plot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...
rustybelt 6y ago
People are more educated than ever. They are more literate and more have attended at least some college. They also have more access to information than ever before. Either lack of education isn't the problem or it's an impossible standard.
- bun_at_work 6y ago
  I agree that people are more educated than ever. And more literate. And more college educated. However, they are not more educated on the topics related to the context of this discussion, like how to filter what's seen on social media, or how the government actually works, or economic systems, or most of the things political discussions are made from. Those topics aren't taught effectively in school anymore, at least not in the areas correlated with alt-right extremism.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Looks like we commented at the same time. Are we even allowed to have political discussions at school? It seems like it isn't allowed in primary and secondary schools. Even at the college level it seems that minority opinion holders are basically shamed into being quiet or are dismissed as unintelligent when it comes to the biggest issues.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I think it could also be the type of information being taught. If people aren't learning about biases, fallacies, basic logic, etc, then it can be easy for people to fall victim to false information. In that sort of scenario, more access to information could be more dangerous.

rayiner 6y ago

The US is one of the most educated countries in the world! Only Korea and Canada are materially ahead of us in college attainment: https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/with-atlanta-mayor-vote-fabled-bipartisan-alliance-comes-end/5yX2nnMifu2RVBeOEjR46O/ https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/with... We’re way ahead of Germany or Italy. The America that sent a man to the moon had around 5% of people with a college degree.

chillfox 6y ago
Sure, but as someone not from the US it looks like that education ain't worth much in the US as you deliberately undermine peoples ability to learn critical thinking by teaching creationism in schools.
- rayiner 6y ago
  This is a really funny accusation since: 1) We don’t teach any religion in schools. 2) Many highly advanced EU countries are required to teach religion in schools e.g. many German states: https://eftre.weebly.com/deutschland-germany.html https://eftre.weebly.com/deutschland-germany.html
  - chillfox 6y ago
    I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should believe in.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. We don't, and we legally cannot. > I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should believe in. That is more than is legally permissible in the U.S. And even if people don't perceive the education as saying "this is true" it still socializes kids in a shared religious history and helps them understand the people who still believe it. There is nothing comparable to this in the U.S.
      - bun_at_work 6y ago
        You're right that religion isn't taught in US schools, however, it is promoted when schools and states work as hard as they can to exclude evolution from public school curriculums. This is effectively teaching the population religion in areas where religion is common and evolution is purged from the school books.
        rj_kidwin 6y ago
        Serious question: can you show evidence where this has actually taken place in the school curriculum in recent times? Anybody can advocate for anything, from wanting to teach Satanism and anti-vaxx science to GMOs cause cancer and "New Math", but the curriculum doesn't bend so easily since there are federal standards. Beyond fear mongering and "leftist memes", any real examples?
- dionidium 6y ago
  All this comment demonstrates is that some bizarre narratives about the U.S. have taken hold. I went to a public high school in rural Missouri. We weren't taught creationism, for crying out loud. In fact, it would have been illegal for them to do so.
zozbot234 6y ago
This is not a very meaningful measure, given that the standards of a "college education" today are way lower than even a high-school education in e.g. the 19th century. Anti-intellectualism is not a new development or a result of the Internet; it has been somewhat common for quite some time, even among the self-proclaimed intellectual elite.
dredmorbius 6y ago
Overeducation may itself be a problem: Elite overproduction, and especially overproduction of the youth with advanced degrees, continues unabated. Our institutions of higher education have been churning out law, MBA, and PhD degrees, many more than could be absorbed by the economy. In a Bloomberg View article published just a few days ago Noah Smith provides the numbers for the overproduction of PhDs (America Is Pumping Out Too Many Ph.D.s https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-04/america-is-pumping-out-too-many-ph-d-s https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-04/americ...). http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/the-storming-of-the-u-s-capitol/ http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/the-storming-of-the-u-s...

dcolkitt 6y ago

Prior to 1950, the median adult American did not have a high school education.[1] If your thesis is that modern-day Americans are too uneducated for democracy, then you'd have to conclude the same about nearly any point in our history. (Or any other democracy prior to a couple decades ago.) [1] https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf

geofft 6y ago
Prior to 1950 (and later), the US wasn't a democracy in the modern sense (as the ability of many citizens to vote was restricted either de jure or de facto), and there were plenty of organizations who were appealing to the uneducated fears of the American populace to keep it that way. Some of them even used mob violence and myths about a past era of greatness. So, yes.
bun_at_work 6y ago
Actually, my thesis isn't that Americans are too uneducated for democracy. It's that they are being manipulated by modern technology, which education in the US has failed to keep up with, resulting in the age of misinformation and "fake news." We live in a new era, the most stark difference being mass communication accessibility. This helps smart people become smarter, but it also helps smart people manipulate uneducated people. My personal thesis on the issues the US is facing involves far more than the systemic defunding of education, but also on economic issues, like how our monetary system has exported labor, leading to a larger class divide and the polarization we're seeing, as well as social media companies (and news companies) having an incentive to promote inflammatory content to generate ad revenue.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Your point makes sense but it's not because of lack of education. Education won't change the natural distribution of intellect and education is often a form of indoctrination as well. The entire history of civilization is a few cold blooded psychopaths manipulating gullible people into doing whatever is needed. And if you think one side is better than the other you're on the receiving end too.

jsight 6y ago

> raised the cost of higher education to levels prohibitive for the majority of the population Do you think there was a time when the majority of the population were college educated? Or realistically had access to college education?

dredmorbius 6y ago
1945--1985 was arguably the high point. G.I. Bill and a rapid expansion of public university systems (inspired by the Sputnik scare --- see California's Master Plan by Clark Kerr), along with low or no tuitions. The tide began turning in the mid-to-late 1980s with rising tuition and a greatly increased reliance on loans.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Do you have some charts or data on degrees conferred per year as a percent of the population? Also, it looks like percent of the population with a degree is higher now than ever. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attainment-of-college-diploma-or-higher-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attai...
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    US BLS, Census, ad NCES have comprehensive stats, with summaries at Wikipedia,[1] and whilst in overall numbers you're probably correct, there are some counterarguments. - Through the 1960s and possibly early 1970s, a solidly middle-class lifestyle remained possible without a college education. Apprentice and vocational tracks were abundant and viable. - US Census data show a Bachellors-level local maximum attainment of about 25% in 1977, not exceeded until the mid-1990s. - Many (though not all) who wanted a degree could get one. Money certainly wasn't the barrier. Yes, it helped (a lot) to be white and male, but former income and class barriers had fallen. By the 1960s, most undergrad programmes were fully co-ed, by the 1970s, graduate and professional. By the 1980s, both were female-majority in many schools if not outright overall. - Debt loads on graduation were effectively nil at public schools. It was possible to study, work part-time, and save a little. On graduation, options were far more open for exploration, public service, volunteering ... or hedonism. This was a high point for Peace Corps work. - Grad school was opening up tremendously. - Academic positions for those grad students were numerous, in large part due to the rapid campus expansion. Today's colleges deliver more graduates, both absolutely and as a fraction of population. But as with automobiles and smartphones, what was once an optional luxury has become a necessity: many basic jobs request (though not all require) a degree. Debt loads are crushing. Secondary education quality is widely perceived as lower, and graduation rates there are effectively unchanged from the 1950s (whites) or early 1970s (all). What variation does exist largely trades graduation rates for aptitude levels. There have always been some graduates who wind up in jobs that don’t require a college degree. But the share seems to be growing. In 1970, only 1 in 100 taxi drivers and chauffeurs in the U.S. had a college degree, according to an analysis of labor statistics by Ohio University’s Richard Vedder, Christopher Denhart and Jonathan Robe. Today [2013], 15 of 100 do. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-driving-taxis-.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-col... So ... yeah, today more people get a college degree, because they must, with possibly worse quality, far higher direct cost, and more constrained options. Is this really progress? I'd explored dimensions of this topic a few years ago, output here: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/search?q=education&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/search?q=education&rest... ________________________________ Notes: 1. Try NCES: https://nces.ed.gov https://nces.ed.gov Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_... Plot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...

rustybelt 6y ago

People are more educated than ever. They are more literate and more have attended at least some college. They also have more access to information than ever before. Either lack of education isn't the problem or it's an impossible standard.

bun_at_work 6y ago
I agree that people are more educated than ever. And more literate. And more college educated. However, they are not more educated on the topics related to the context of this discussion, like how to filter what's seen on social media, or how the government actually works, or economic systems, or most of the things political discussions are made from. Those topics aren't taught effectively in school anymore, at least not in the areas correlated with alt-right extremism.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Looks like we commented at the same time. Are we even allowed to have political discussions at school? It seems like it isn't allowed in primary and secondary schools. Even at the college level it seems that minority opinion holders are basically shamed into being quiet or are dismissed as unintelligent when it comes to the biggest issues.
giantg2 6y ago
I think it could also be the type of information being taught. If people aren't learning about biases, fallacies, basic logic, etc, then it can be easy for people to fall victim to false information. In that sort of scenario, more access to information could be more dangerous.