4 ms·

Sexual mores have been fluid throughout history. There's no particular reason to think one side is more on the "right side" than the other from an absolute sens

Sexual mores have been fluid throughout history. There's no particular reason to think one side is more on the "right side" than the other from an absolute sense, looking at the historical track record. For that matter, the notion of human rights as we conceive of them is a relatively modern invention. Liberalism isn't even 400 years old yet (and the notion of universal rule of law as codified in the Magna Carta is itself only just past 800). By comparison, Ancient Egypt lasted for around 3,000 years, and Rome for 1,200. We've got a while yet before we can declare our way is any more successful than theirs. Particularly if someone believes that it's a religious issue dictated by a deity who takes an active interest in the world, then they'll definitely believe they're on the right side of history.

deanCommie 6y ago
Transgenderism is not a sexual more, though. Is the trend of human history on the scale of thousands of years old relevant? Is that no different than saying "It's pointless to worry about climate change because the sun will explode and then there will be the heat death of the universe?" Surely there is some evidence that society and humanity is "stabilizing" to a certain plateau of morality and ethics not driven by religion but driven by humanism? Lastly, "Particularly if someone believes that it's a religious issue dictated by a deity who takes an active interest in the world, then they'll definitely believe they're on the right side of history." is exactly why I ask! Because the perspective of what is acceptable from these religious institutions is rapidly changing! 50 years ago a Christian church that is "gay-friendly" would be inconceivable. Today there are many. Of course there are those that would dismiss those out of hand, but by default the ethical positions of groups that supposedly represent eternal immortal deities is shifting - from evolution, to birth control, to homosexuality. I'm genuinely wondering if people believe that transgender acceptance is somehow unique.
- indigochill 6y ago
  > Is the trend of human history on the scale of thousands of years old relevant? Yeah, because... > Surely there is some evidence that society and humanity is "stabilizing" to a certain plateau of morality and ethics not driven by religion but driven by humanism? My point in my previous post is that I don't think we can make that claim yet because we don't have enough data. Surely the ancient Romans and Egyptians would have believed the same, yet here we are.
- xupybd 6y ago
  Humanism is one world view. One that you can build a moral framework around. Much the same way religious people build a world view based on their religious beliefs. It's hard to make an argument that one world view is better than another. Because to do so you have to agree how to measure the outcomes of world views. Often this is impossible as the world views conflict. The makes most assessments of societies progress subjective.
mr_toad 6y ago
Or you could argue that as long as no one is getting hurt what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ for other people is none of your business.

deanCommie 6y ago

Transgenderism is not a sexual more, though. Is the trend of human history on the scale of thousands of years old relevant? Is that no different than saying "It's pointless to worry about climate change because the sun will explode and then there will be the heat death of the universe?" Surely there is some evidence that society and humanity is "stabilizing" to a certain plateau of morality and ethics not driven by religion but driven by humanism? Lastly, "Particularly if someone believes that it's a religious issue dictated by a deity who takes an active interest in the world, then they'll definitely believe they're on the right side of history." is exactly why I ask! Because the perspective of what is acceptable from these religious institutions is rapidly changing! 50 years ago a Christian church that is "gay-friendly" would be inconceivable. Today there are many. Of course there are those that would dismiss those out of hand, but by default the ethical positions of groups that supposedly represent eternal immortal deities is shifting - from evolution, to birth control, to homosexuality. I'm genuinely wondering if people believe that transgender acceptance is somehow unique.

indigochill 6y ago
> Is the trend of human history on the scale of thousands of years old relevant? Yeah, because... > Surely there is some evidence that society and humanity is "stabilizing" to a certain plateau of morality and ethics not driven by religion but driven by humanism? My point in my previous post is that I don't think we can make that claim yet because we don't have enough data. Surely the ancient Romans and Egyptians would have believed the same, yet here we are.
xupybd 6y ago
Humanism is one world view. One that you can build a moral framework around. Much the same way religious people build a world view based on their religious beliefs. It's hard to make an argument that one world view is better than another. Because to do so you have to agree how to measure the outcomes of world views. Often this is impossible as the world views conflict. The makes most assessments of societies progress subjective.

mr_toad 6y ago

Or you could argue that as long as no one is getting hurt what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ for other people is none of your business.