8 ms·

All these Xorg/X11 problems people complain about... I honestly don't see them. I've been using Xorg in one form or another since 2005-2006 and frankly since w

by znpy 6y ago

All these Xorg/X11 problems people complain about... I honestly don't see them. I've been using Xorg in one form or another since 2005-2006 and frankly since we all got automatic configuration and said godbye to Xorg.conf it's been a very very pleasant experience. I've been using both nVidia and intel cards, 1/2/3 monitors (in various arrangement) and network stuff (ssh -X and similar), and a videogame from time to time. Even xterm, with the right fonts, it's a very nice setup. I almost can't see the difference between a gtk emacs window and an emacs session running in xterm-unicode with proper fonts and antialiasing. Xorg might not be "optimal", but it works very well for me and I won't be switching to anything else until a wayland or whatever reach feature parity (including but not limited to network transparency). Whatever,

bitwize 6y ago
> All these Xorg/X11 problems people complain about... I honestly don't see them. That's because DonHopkins is shitposting quotes from the Unix Haters Handbook, which came out in 1994 and contains gripes about Unix dating back to the 80s. The Unix ecosystem, including X11, evolved a teensy tiny bit since then.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  One wouldn't notice that, given how many eschew the progress made and live in the command line as if stuck in the 80's.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    It's not as much "the command line", but being able to talk to your computer using a human-like language, instead of pointing with your finger like a baby or a monkey. Do you know any computer/user interface that is based on writing what you want to do? (instead of selecting it from a small list of possibilities) The only one that I know is the "primitive" command line.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Yes, the REPL as used at Xerox PARC, while Bell Labs was busy with troff.
      - enriquto 6y ago
        Don't you have a modern example? I thought you were despising 80s technology.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        UNIX is still busy trying to catch up with 70's world from Parc Place, and apparently the 80's UNIX world is what UNIX aficionados want to stay on. No need for more modern examples.
        panta 6y ago
        But what is there for power users today? AFAIK Unix is the only viable option from a very pragmatic point of view. So it's not about being aficionados, it's about being pragmatic.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        The millions of users using IDEs, Jupiter notebooks and tablets disagree.
        beagle3 6y ago
        Most of them have no effective way of automating their work. Every piece of software (Excel? Word? Outlook? Autocad? Photoshop?) has its own system of automation if it has one at all, with many of the skills complicated to learn on one hand, and not transferable on the other. On tablets, automation is essentially nonexistent. Whereas on Unix, there's a mostly-unified system of automation (shell), with mostly transferable knowledge. If there is nothing in your work that benefits from automation, you wouldn't care. But you'd also be rather special, IME - most people spend a lot of time on recurring and automatable actions they gain no benefit from repeating manually.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
zelly 6y ago
X11 is a keylogger, for one. Network transparency is a vulnerability, not a feature.
- getitstraight 6y ago
  Yes, and Wayland is a pile of shit, so what's your point? Xorg has this one problem, Wayland has countless problems. Xorg is stable and proven for decades; Wayland has been incomplete and buggy for decades. I don't run Wayland, PulseAudio, DBUS, or SystemDumpsterFire on my system, and don't miss any of them. I don't run strange binary code on my system either, so keyloggers aren't really a concern. I find it ironic that people who routinely shovel foreign binary code onto their system (even automatically downloading and installing it, no less) from untrusted and untrustworthy third parties, are so all-fired concerned about these trifling imagined Xorg security problems.
- znpy 6y ago
  Oh shut up.
  - selfhoster11 6y ago
    > Be kind. Don't be snarky. (...) Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please, let's not reduce the level of discussion over here. Let's keep this respectful. I have deliberately chosen to keep my answer to the OP on point, even though I disagree just as strongly.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't do this here. We ban accounts that post like this, and have had to ask you not to before. I'm not going to ban you because you've mostly been posting good comments lately, which is cool. But comments like this do more damage than good comments add value, so please don't do that anymore. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, we'd be grateful.
- selfhoster11 6y ago

by znpy 6y ago

bitwize 6y ago

> All these Xorg/X11 problems people complain about... I honestly don't see them. That's because DonHopkins is shitposting quotes from the Unix Haters Handbook, which came out in 1994 and contains gripes about Unix dating back to the 80s. The Unix ecosystem, including X11, evolved a teensy tiny bit since then.

pjmlp 6y ago
One wouldn't notice that, given how many eschew the progress made and live in the command line as if stuck in the 80's.
- enriquto 6y ago
  It's not as much "the command line", but being able to talk to your computer using a human-like language, instead of pointing with your finger like a baby or a monkey. Do you know any computer/user interface that is based on writing what you want to do? (instead of selecting it from a small list of possibilities) The only one that I know is the "primitive" command line.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Yes, the REPL as used at Xerox PARC, while Bell Labs was busy with troff.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      Don't you have a modern example? I thought you were despising 80s technology.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        UNIX is still busy trying to catch up with 70's world from Parc Place, and apparently the 80's UNIX world is what UNIX aficionados want to stay on. No need for more modern examples.
        panta 6y ago
        But what is there for power users today? AFAIK Unix is the only viable option from a very pragmatic point of view. So it's not about being aficionados, it's about being pragmatic.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        The millions of users using IDEs, Jupiter notebooks and tablets disagree.
        beagle3 6y ago
        Most of them have no effective way of automating their work. Every piece of software (Excel? Word? Outlook? Autocad? Photoshop?) has its own system of automation if it has one at all, with many of the skills complicated to learn on one hand, and not transferable on the other. On tablets, automation is essentially nonexistent. Whereas on Unix, there's a mostly-unified system of automation (shell), with mostly transferable knowledge. If there is nothing in your work that benefits from automation, you wouldn't care. But you'd also be rather special, IME - most people spend a lot of time on recurring and automatable actions they gain no benefit from repeating manually.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

zelly 6y ago

X11 is a keylogger, for one. Network transparency is a vulnerability, not a feature.

getitstraight 6y ago
Yes, and Wayland is a pile of shit, so what's your point? Xorg has this one problem, Wayland has countless problems. Xorg is stable and proven for decades; Wayland has been incomplete and buggy for decades. I don't run Wayland, PulseAudio, DBUS, or SystemDumpsterFire on my system, and don't miss any of them. I don't run strange binary code on my system either, so keyloggers aren't really a concern. I find it ironic that people who routinely shovel foreign binary code onto their system (even automatically downloading and installing it, no less) from untrusted and untrustworthy third parties, are so all-fired concerned about these trifling imagined Xorg security problems.
znpy 6y ago
Oh shut up.
- selfhoster11 6y ago
  > Be kind. Don't be snarky. (...) Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please, let's not reduce the level of discussion over here. Let's keep this respectful. I have deliberately chosen to keep my answer to the OP on point, even though I disagree just as strongly.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't do this here. We ban accounts that post like this, and have had to ask you not to before. I'm not going to ban you because you've mostly been posting good comments lately, which is cool. But comments like this do more damage than good comments add value, so please don't do that anymore. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, we'd be grateful.
selfhoster11 6y ago