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Out of curiosity, which facts do you mean? The law is stupid of course and an attempt to fight for their point of view(that is: xenophobic, racist and intolera

Out of curiosity, which facts do you mean? The law is stupid of course and an attempt to fight for their point of view(that is: xenophobic, racist and intolerant), but history is a subject rather widely discussed in Poland with all the sides being represented in media.

kennywinker 6y ago
https://time.com/5128341/poland-holocaust-law/ https://time.com/5128341/poland-holocaust-law/ > The bill was proposed by the country’s ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) and calls for up to three years in prison or a fine for accusing the Polish state or people of involvement or responsibility for the Nazi occupation during World War II The law has since passed, tho it was later amended to remove the prison time portion. Now I am not a lawyer, nor am I polish, so I don't know what the situation is on the ground - but I believe the law makes repeating much of the contents of this wikipedia page illegal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupi...
- zozbot234 6y ago
  No one sensible is accusing "the Polish state" or "the Polish people" of being involved with the Holocaust, and the Wikipedia page itself doesn't state anything like that. The law is aimed at hateful idiocy like talking about the supposed "Polish death camps", as opposed to the tragically real Nazi death camps in Nazi-occupied Poland.
  - kennywinker 6y ago
    The wikipedia page I linked to clearly points out that polish people WERE involved in the holocaust. Not all, in fact I believe the vast majority of poles were not collaborators... but that doesn't mean this law doesn't make it legally sketchy to talk about the poles who were collaborators
    - favorited 6y ago
      I visited a Nazi extermination camp in Poland where you could literally see the adjacent town from inside the camp fences. It's absolute lunacy to pretend there weren't Polish collaborators.
      - monday40 6y ago
        It's an absolute lunacy to think that because a group of people lives nearby a place where something bad is going on, it is certain that among them are people helping with it.
    - tomaszs 6y ago
      Polish people were exterminated on a daily basis by German nazis. Over 5 million Poles were brutally killed. It is hard to miss German attack and occupation of Poland aim was also to depopulate it from polish people. Collaborators were punished because they were traitors and everyone seen and sees them like such. Below is a link to a Wikipedia where you can learn more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%931945) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1939%E2%8... I hope you will understand how offensive and false your comment is.
      - kennywinker 6y ago
        Just one example from your link: > Especially in the early weeks of the German offensive, many thousands of Jews were murdered by members of local communities in the western parts of the previously Soviet zone, such as the Baltic countries, eastern Poland, and western Ukraine. I am absolutely not trying to paint a complex situation in black and white. The article you linked to also points out how many non-jewish poles were killed, how many non-jewish poles helped jewish poles at great risk to themselves, etc. but the idea that you can “other” collaborator poles out of being poles is denying the reality.
      - concordDance 6y ago
        Polish people were also murdered in huge numbers by the Russians, but people often forget that.
stretchcat 6y ago
There are some who like to call Nazi death camps 'Polish death camps' because they were located in Nazi occupied Poland. This, of course, is frowned on by Poland. It is seen as a way of blaming Poland for Germany's crimes, while the people who do it play innocent and claim they are merely stating 'true facts' about the locations of the camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Polish_death_camp"_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Polish_death_camp"_controvers...
- cygx 6y ago
  Note the last part of that article, though[1]: You're also not allowed to refer to camps like Zgoda or Jaworzno - which were labour camps operated by poles on behalf of the communist regime - as 'Polish concentration camps'. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_controversy#Spill-over_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_contro...
  - stretchcat 6y ago
    These laws are in response to people, some of them misguided but many of them doubtlessly neo-nazis, calling Auschwitz a 'polish camp'. The law has unfortunate edge cases but I think it was well motivated. If you tally up all the Poles who knowingly and willingly collaborated with Nazis and compare that with the number of Poles murdered by the Nazis, I think it's clear that calling Auschwitz a 'polish camp' is monstrous. And while the matter of Zgoda should be taken seriously, it should also be kept in context. Less than two thousand people died at Zgoda, which is certainly a horrible crime. But that number represents what, a few hours at Auschwitz? It was more at Jaworzno, but still less than a single day at Auschwitz. It is any wonder the matter of these camps was overlooked in the formulation of a law targetting neo-nazis who want to disassociate Germany from Auschwitz? It's not what I'd call a great law. But I think it's a law with a wholly reasonable motivation.
  - b0rsuk 6y ago
    I'll tell you a secret. Poles are exceptionally adept at duplicity and censoring their history. Chopin, Konopnicka were likely gay? LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Józef Bem converted to Islam and still acted like a Polish patriot? Let's talk about something else. Such and such poets or composers etc were jewish? You're either a Jew or a Polish Catholic, obviously. Poland never attacked any countries. Poland didn't initially try an alliance with Hitler and annex a part of Czechoslovakia. The word "pogrom" doesn't come from Polish, no no. And before "pogrom", "tumult" wasn't used as an euphemism. Aggression towards immigrants doesn't contradict Christianity. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was perfect and it collapsed only because it was attacked by neighbors. All countries bordering with Poland love Poland. Poland is the fountain of innovation, it's only a coincidence the most famous Polish people lived outside Poland. There's literally a common phrase "Poland is the Christ of nations." - Mickiewicz, the chief poet. You can only be the Christ if you're without fault. edit: this post is getting downvoted :D. I was never good at Polish doublethink, cared too much about facts.

kennywinker 6y ago

https://time.com/5128341/poland-holocaust-law/ https://time.com/5128341/poland-holocaust-law/ > The bill was proposed by the country’s ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) and calls for up to three years in prison or a fine for accusing the Polish state or people of involvement or responsibility for the Nazi occupation during World War II The law has since passed, tho it was later amended to remove the prison time portion. Now I am not a lawyer, nor am I polish, so I don't know what the situation is on the ground - but I believe the law makes repeating much of the contents of this wikipedia page illegal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupi...

zozbot234 6y ago
No one sensible is accusing "the Polish state" or "the Polish people" of being involved with the Holocaust, and the Wikipedia page itself doesn't state anything like that. The law is aimed at hateful idiocy like talking about the supposed "Polish death camps", as opposed to the tragically real Nazi death camps in Nazi-occupied Poland.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  The wikipedia page I linked to clearly points out that polish people WERE involved in the holocaust. Not all, in fact I believe the vast majority of poles were not collaborators... but that doesn't mean this law doesn't make it legally sketchy to talk about the poles who were collaborators
  - favorited 6y ago
    I visited a Nazi extermination camp in Poland where you could literally see the adjacent town from inside the camp fences. It's absolute lunacy to pretend there weren't Polish collaborators.
    - monday40 6y ago
      It's an absolute lunacy to think that because a group of people lives nearby a place where something bad is going on, it is certain that among them are people helping with it.
  - tomaszs 6y ago
    Polish people were exterminated on a daily basis by German nazis. Over 5 million Poles were brutally killed. It is hard to miss German attack and occupation of Poland aim was also to depopulate it from polish people. Collaborators were punished because they were traitors and everyone seen and sees them like such. Below is a link to a Wikipedia where you can learn more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%931945) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1939%E2%8... I hope you will understand how offensive and false your comment is.
    - kennywinker 6y ago
      Just one example from your link: > Especially in the early weeks of the German offensive, many thousands of Jews were murdered by members of local communities in the western parts of the previously Soviet zone, such as the Baltic countries, eastern Poland, and western Ukraine. I am absolutely not trying to paint a complex situation in black and white. The article you linked to also points out how many non-jewish poles were killed, how many non-jewish poles helped jewish poles at great risk to themselves, etc. but the idea that you can “other” collaborator poles out of being poles is denying the reality.
    - concordDance 6y ago
      Polish people were also murdered in huge numbers by the Russians, but people often forget that.

stretchcat 6y ago

There are some who like to call Nazi death camps 'Polish death camps' because they were located in Nazi occupied Poland. This, of course, is frowned on by Poland. It is seen as a way of blaming Poland for Germany's crimes, while the people who do it play innocent and claim they are merely stating 'true facts' about the locations of the camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Polish_death_camp"_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Polish_death_camp"_controvers...

cygx 6y ago
Note the last part of that article, though[1]: You're also not allowed to refer to camps like Zgoda or Jaworzno - which were labour camps operated by poles on behalf of the communist regime - as 'Polish concentration camps'. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_controversy#Spill-over_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_contro...
- stretchcat 6y ago
  These laws are in response to people, some of them misguided but many of them doubtlessly neo-nazis, calling Auschwitz a 'polish camp'. The law has unfortunate edge cases but I think it was well motivated. If you tally up all the Poles who knowingly and willingly collaborated with Nazis and compare that with the number of Poles murdered by the Nazis, I think it's clear that calling Auschwitz a 'polish camp' is monstrous. And while the matter of Zgoda should be taken seriously, it should also be kept in context. Less than two thousand people died at Zgoda, which is certainly a horrible crime. But that number represents what, a few hours at Auschwitz? It was more at Jaworzno, but still less than a single day at Auschwitz. It is any wonder the matter of these camps was overlooked in the formulation of a law targetting neo-nazis who want to disassociate Germany from Auschwitz? It's not what I'd call a great law. But I think it's a law with a wholly reasonable motivation.
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  I'll tell you a secret. Poles are exceptionally adept at duplicity and censoring their history. Chopin, Konopnicka were likely gay? LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Józef Bem converted to Islam and still acted like a Polish patriot? Let's talk about something else. Such and such poets or composers etc were jewish? You're either a Jew or a Polish Catholic, obviously. Poland never attacked any countries. Poland didn't initially try an alliance with Hitler and annex a part of Czechoslovakia. The word "pogrom" doesn't come from Polish, no no. And before "pogrom", "tumult" wasn't used as an euphemism. Aggression towards immigrants doesn't contradict Christianity. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was perfect and it collapsed only because it was attacked by neighbors. All countries bordering with Poland love Poland. Poland is the fountain of innovation, it's only a coincidence the most famous Polish people lived outside Poland. There's literally a common phrase "Poland is the Christ of nations." - Mickiewicz, the chief poet. You can only be the Christ if you're without fault. edit: this post is getting downvoted :D. I was never good at Polish doublethink, cared too much about facts.