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As a country that has suffered the turmoil of both Nazism and Communism, it would be wise to heed their direction. They know the smell of tyranny all too well.

As a country that has suffered the turmoil of both Nazism and Communism, it would be wise to heed their direction. They know the smell of tyranny all too well. The proverbial canary.

baq 6y ago
The same Justice Minister wants to take away the right to refuse a ticket from the police, so don't be so quick in your judgment.
- the-dude 6y ago
  What does that even mean, refusing a ticket? If I refuse a ticket in NL, I will still get the fine-notice in the mail.
  - baq 6y ago
    you can take the issue to court instead. if you're win, you pay nothing, if you're wrong, you pay the fine and court expenses - or whatever the court finds wrong at the same time. accepting the ticket means basically confessing that you're guilty. the idea is that policemen are wrong sometimes and refusing the ticket gives you an out; it keeps the police honest. with the new law you could in theory get a speeding ticket for walking and it'd be up to you to prove that you haven't done it.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      If I take the issue to court, I can either prove I didn't do the 'crime', or argue there is insufficient evidence. But police officers testimonies carry a lot of weight, so that is not a fruitful path. It is still unclear to me what you are exactly saying.
      - garaetjjte 6y ago
        Currently when you don't accept ticket, no penalty is yet applied, and police needs to file court case against you. Proposed changes make it that ticket can't be refused and penalty is always applied, but it can be afterwards appealed to the court. This is less favorable as it shifts court process burden from police (they need to prove you are guilty in the first place) to you (you are appealing already applied penalty).
        the-dude 6y ago
        Has been like this for 'overtredingen' ( minor offences like jaywalking, speeding, running red lights ) in NL for decades. Wet Mulder for those interested.
        garaetjjte 6y ago
        Yes, this proposal taken alone might seem benign, but people are riled up about this because context matter: many of the pandemic restrictions are unlawful, because they are either introduced in decrees issued by prime minister instead of laws passed in parliament, or infringe on freedoms guaranteed in constitution without introducing state of emergency. As such, many courts are throwing out cases brought by police about violating pandemic restrictions. Proceeding law changes about refusing tickets now, just feels like blatantly like: "Oh, they are not accepting tickets based on unlawful regulations? Let's make it harder to refuse ticket!"
        the-dude 6y ago
        I understand the change is unwelcome. For us an appeal is just a letter to the public attorney(?), which will either result in them dropping it, or a case, all of which you can do yourself.
        kubanczyk 6y ago
        Do people in Holland protest when their government tries to shift some bureaucratic burden to the citizens, when it was previously on the professionals paid by the citizens' money? Well, Polish people seemingly do mind. I got a ticket, I'm sure I'm innocent: - old way: police "organizes" the court appointment, I wait - new way: I "organize" the court appointment, police waits The taxes don't change.
dudek1337 6y ago
This government is heading into a tyranny. And most of voters are happy with it, sadly.
gedy 6y ago
This is a valuable and reasonable opinion, and does not deserve the downvotes.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
  This government has learned from that time, but looking at the state of TVP and these "tematy zastępcze" they seem rather fond of Goebbels' methods. Paint "the west" as the enemy to your "great traditions" and use the wedges like this law to distract people from creeping towards authoritarianism.
  - alacombe 6y ago
    > ... creeping towards authoritarianism Because all the shit going on in the US isn't ?
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
      I don't see how it's relevant. Would you be fine being a kulak in Soviet Russia being scheduled for execution because at least the Japanese are currently organizing mass murder in China as well?
      - alacombe 6y ago
        > I don't see how it's relevant. Instead of looking at the neighbor's mess, clean up your own mess first. Fact is most of the former "free" (as in Liberty) world has been setting up the perfect legal building blocks for a long sitting reign of terror / dictatorship / authoritarianism, and big-tech is 100% complicit (because they will make money out of it).
        isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
        Not everybody on hn is american, I thought speaking Polish would give it away.
perardi 6y ago
They know the smell of tyranny all too well. Yeah, because they’ve been the ones cooking it up. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/world/europe/eu-poland-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/world/europe/eu-poland-la...

As a country that has suffered the turmoil of both Nazism and Communism, it would be wise to heed their direction. They know the smell of tyranny all too well. The proverbial canary.

baq 6y ago

The same Justice Minister wants to take away the right to refuse a ticket from the police, so don't be so quick in your judgment.

the-dude 6y ago
What does that even mean, refusing a ticket? If I refuse a ticket in NL, I will still get the fine-notice in the mail.
- baq 6y ago
  you can take the issue to court instead. if you're win, you pay nothing, if you're wrong, you pay the fine and court expenses - or whatever the court finds wrong at the same time. accepting the ticket means basically confessing that you're guilty. the idea is that policemen are wrong sometimes and refusing the ticket gives you an out; it keeps the police honest. with the new law you could in theory get a speeding ticket for walking and it'd be up to you to prove that you haven't done it.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    If I take the issue to court, I can either prove I didn't do the 'crime', or argue there is insufficient evidence. But police officers testimonies carry a lot of weight, so that is not a fruitful path. It is still unclear to me what you are exactly saying.
    - garaetjjte 6y ago
      Currently when you don't accept ticket, no penalty is yet applied, and police needs to file court case against you. Proposed changes make it that ticket can't be refused and penalty is always applied, but it can be afterwards appealed to the court. This is less favorable as it shifts court process burden from police (they need to prove you are guilty in the first place) to you (you are appealing already applied penalty).
      - the-dude 6y ago
        Has been like this for 'overtredingen' ( minor offences like jaywalking, speeding, running red lights ) in NL for decades. Wet Mulder for those interested.
        garaetjjte 6y ago
        Yes, this proposal taken alone might seem benign, but people are riled up about this because context matter: many of the pandemic restrictions are unlawful, because they are either introduced in decrees issued by prime minister instead of laws passed in parliament, or infringe on freedoms guaranteed in constitution without introducing state of emergency. As such, many courts are throwing out cases brought by police about violating pandemic restrictions. Proceeding law changes about refusing tickets now, just feels like blatantly like: "Oh, they are not accepting tickets based on unlawful regulations? Let's make it harder to refuse ticket!"
        the-dude 6y ago
        I understand the change is unwelcome. For us an appeal is just a letter to the public attorney(?), which will either result in them dropping it, or a case, all of which you can do yourself.
        kubanczyk 6y ago
        Do people in Holland protest when their government tries to shift some bureaucratic burden to the citizens, when it was previously on the professionals paid by the citizens' money? Well, Polish people seemingly do mind. I got a ticket, I'm sure I'm innocent: - old way: police "organizes" the court appointment, I wait - new way: I "organize" the court appointment, police waits The taxes don't change.

dudek1337 6y ago

This government is heading into a tyranny. And most of voters are happy with it, sadly.

gedy 6y ago

This is a valuable and reasonable opinion, and does not deserve the downvotes.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
This government has learned from that time, but looking at the state of TVP and these "tematy zastępcze" they seem rather fond of Goebbels' methods. Paint "the west" as the enemy to your "great traditions" and use the wedges like this law to distract people from creeping towards authoritarianism.
- alacombe 6y ago
  > ... creeping towards authoritarianism Because all the shit going on in the US isn't ?
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
    I don't see how it's relevant. Would you be fine being a kulak in Soviet Russia being scheduled for execution because at least the Japanese are currently organizing mass murder in China as well?
    - alacombe 6y ago
      > I don't see how it's relevant. Instead of looking at the neighbor's mess, clean up your own mess first. Fact is most of the former "free" (as in Liberty) world has been setting up the perfect legal building blocks for a long sitting reign of terror / dictatorship / authoritarianism, and big-tech is 100% complicit (because they will make money out of it).
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
        Not everybody on hn is american, I thought speaking Polish would give it away.

perardi 6y ago

They know the smell of tyranny all too well. Yeah, because they’ve been the ones cooking it up. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/world/europe/eu-poland-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/world/europe/eu-poland-la...