3 ms·

> But Linus is talking about power-budget. Linus covered a lot of ground in that message. He was correct on his history, whether that is history you'd like to

> But Linus is talking about power-budget. Linus covered a lot of ground in that message. He was correct on his history, whether that is history you'd like to remember or not. His transistor budget argument is very plausible, but without playing out an alternative history we can't know, and by we I mean you. At the time he wrote it he was correct on the power 'virus,' and I can't think of any good reason why he or anyone else owes Intel the benefit of the doubt that some future device would improve anything. The AVX512 fanboi contingent will forever seethe about what Linus wrote. Meanwhile Apple and AMD are eating Intel's lunch with no 512 bit SIMD instruction units at all. Linus had it right and and he is looking more correct every day.

dragontamer 6y ago
> The AVX512 fanboi contingent Just so you know... I'm an AMD Threadripper fanboy, if anything. Since that's my personal computer. More importantly though, I'm a technologist. I experiment and play with many technologies, including SIMD compute, when I can. Either way, I don't think flamebait comments like that are very helpful for discussion. But I'll try to focus on the crux of your argument instead... > Meanwhile Apple and AMD are eating Intel's lunch with no 512 bit SIMD instruction units at all Apple has 4x 128-bit Multiply-and-accumulate per-clock-tick on its M1. AMD has 2+2 multiply and add x 256-bit SIMD. Those processors are actually very beefy in terms of SIMD-implementation. There's also the Fujitsu A64Fx, which is an ARM-implementation of 512-bit SVE. In fact, 512-bit ARM-SVE is about to be widely-deployed on Neoverse. SIMD-units are universally expanding across the industry. One of AMD Threadripper's biggest leaps forward from Zen1 -> Zen2 was the upgrade from 2+2 128-bit SIMD to 2+2 256-SIMD (doubling its throughput). Intel is trying to stay ahead of the curve with 512, and they're really not that far ahead. Indeed: ARM's SVE is already caught up. ------- NVidia's 32-wide SIMT is basically a 1024-bit implementation, while AMD's 64-wide SIMD is 2048-bit SIMD. With all of the "Deep Learning" going on, its actually a very important workload for a number of companies. Linus is pretty much saying that Deep Learning / Tensorflow / etc. etc. isn't important. Which is... backwards thinking methinks. I think that deep learning is overhyped, but still I see the benefits of general SIMD compute in every-day coding situations.
- robocat 6y ago
  You clearly are an expert on SIMD instructions, but your comments smell like you just want to hate on Linus. For example, I think very few people would agree with: “And then suddenly he [Linus] talks about AVX512 and I wonder if he knows anything about low-level programming or optimization.” And “But Linus is talking about power-budget”. No, you are hyper-focusing on that strawman, but his argument stands without that point. He is making a broader point based on his experience of Intel extensions over many years and he specifically alludes to that. He is saying he believes that AVX512 doesn’t add enough benefit for the costs. You say “Linus is pretty much saying that Deep Learning / Tensorflow / etc. etc. isn't important.” but he says “I'd much rather see that transistor budget used on other things that are much more relevant. Even if it's still FP math (in the GPU, rather than AVX512)”. You are the leaf on every comment on this thread, which is usually a bad sign of arguing a point regardless of the validity of what others say. As I read it, your arguments seem to argue about anything except for the core thesis of what Linus wrote, or you misrepresent his argument IMHO. Edit: also, Linus is stating his opinion, an opinion which written loosely enough that you as an expert clearly can’t actually pin down as “wrong”. To make your point about the article, you would perhaps be better looking for a different example.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > but your comments smell like you just want to hate on Linus. > No, you are hyper-focusing on that strawman Others I've talked to have hyper-focused on that strawman. It isn't Linus I'm necessarily mad at, its his legion of fanboys who make crappy arguments based off of Linus's words. Its not just the AVX512 example: people copy/paste his opinion on C++, Geekbench, and a whole slew of other issues constantly. Linus's arguments become memes throughout Reddit and are echo'd without analysis. -------- But that's what happens when you put an "Expert" on a pedestal. People take their words, meme them out into new arguments, and then they don't necessarily apply anymore in the new situations. That's my experience with "experts". The expert themselves are real, but the words they say can become warped through discussion to the point where they're meaningless.

dragontamer 6y ago

> The AVX512 fanboi contingent Just so you know... I'm an AMD Threadripper fanboy, if anything. Since that's my personal computer. More importantly though, I'm a technologist. I experiment and play with many technologies, including SIMD compute, when I can. Either way, I don't think flamebait comments like that are very helpful for discussion. But I'll try to focus on the crux of your argument instead... > Meanwhile Apple and AMD are eating Intel's lunch with no 512 bit SIMD instruction units at all Apple has 4x 128-bit Multiply-and-accumulate per-clock-tick on its M1. AMD has 2+2 multiply and add x 256-bit SIMD. Those processors are actually very beefy in terms of SIMD-implementation. There's also the Fujitsu A64Fx, which is an ARM-implementation of 512-bit SVE. In fact, 512-bit ARM-SVE is about to be widely-deployed on Neoverse. SIMD-units are universally expanding across the industry. One of AMD Threadripper's biggest leaps forward from Zen1 -> Zen2 was the upgrade from 2+2 128-bit SIMD to 2+2 256-SIMD (doubling its throughput). Intel is trying to stay ahead of the curve with 512, and they're really not that far ahead. Indeed: ARM's SVE is already caught up. ------- NVidia's 32-wide SIMT is basically a 1024-bit implementation, while AMD's 64-wide SIMD is 2048-bit SIMD. With all of the "Deep Learning" going on, its actually a very important workload for a number of companies. Linus is pretty much saying that Deep Learning / Tensorflow / etc. etc. isn't important. Which is... backwards thinking methinks. I think that deep learning is overhyped, but still I see the benefits of general SIMD compute in every-day coding situations.

robocat 6y ago
You clearly are an expert on SIMD instructions, but your comments smell like you just want to hate on Linus. For example, I think very few people would agree with: “And then suddenly he [Linus] talks about AVX512 and I wonder if he knows anything about low-level programming or optimization.” And “But Linus is talking about power-budget”. No, you are hyper-focusing on that strawman, but his argument stands without that point. He is making a broader point based on his experience of Intel extensions over many years and he specifically alludes to that. He is saying he believes that AVX512 doesn’t add enough benefit for the costs. You say “Linus is pretty much saying that Deep Learning / Tensorflow / etc. etc. isn't important.” but he says “I'd much rather see that transistor budget used on other things that are much more relevant. Even if it's still FP math (in the GPU, rather than AVX512)”. You are the leaf on every comment on this thread, which is usually a bad sign of arguing a point regardless of the validity of what others say. As I read it, your arguments seem to argue about anything except for the core thesis of what Linus wrote, or you misrepresent his argument IMHO. Edit: also, Linus is stating his opinion, an opinion which written loosely enough that you as an expert clearly can’t actually pin down as “wrong”. To make your point about the article, you would perhaps be better looking for a different example.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > but your comments smell like you just want to hate on Linus. > No, you are hyper-focusing on that strawman Others I've talked to have hyper-focused on that strawman. It isn't Linus I'm necessarily mad at, its his legion of fanboys who make crappy arguments based off of Linus's words. Its not just the AVX512 example: people copy/paste his opinion on C++, Geekbench, and a whole slew of other issues constantly. Linus's arguments become memes throughout Reddit and are echo'd without analysis. -------- But that's what happens when you put an "Expert" on a pedestal. People take their words, meme them out into new arguments, and then they don't necessarily apply anymore in the new situations. That's my experience with "experts". The expert themselves are real, but the words they say can become warped through discussion to the point where they're meaningless.