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People don't seem to understand how close we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. This is not cultural censorship. Facebook is finally waking up to the

People don't seem to understand how close we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. This is not cultural censorship. Facebook is finally waking up to the reality that lies about our elections are well on their way to starting a civil war. With that display on the 6th, that rhetoric is now over the line. They let it go, right up until the consequences (as heinous as they are predictable) were clear.

admiralspoo 6y ago
Google and Facebook already have documented ability to rig elections, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_manipulation_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_manipulation_eff... Politicians, including the incoming regime, are at their mercy and ought to be careful not to step on any toes.
- metalliqaz 6y ago
  They don't seem to be shy about criticizing big tech at all.
the_drunkard 6y ago
> lies about our elections for the past 4 years the media spun a narrative of Russian collusion, one that largely proved to be false and filled with fabricated stories. Nanci Pelosi tweet May 2017: Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts. https://twitter.com/speakerpelosi/status/864522009048494080?lang=en https://twitter.com/speakerpelosi/status/864522009048494080?...
- hehehaha 6y ago
  You mean the investigation that the Trump administration actively obstructed?
  - whateveracct 6y ago
    wonder why this is downvoted it's pretty fact-based and in plain sight probably normal HN bias?
    - hehehaha 6y ago
      Think it came off as political. Wasn’t my intention.
      - whateveracct 6y ago
        HNers take any claim of Trump criminality as political. Kinda skeevy but it is what it is.
  - razius 6y ago
    Yet she wasn't purged from all social media?
- ChrisLomont 6y ago
  >the media spun a narrative of Russian collusion No, the media spun the narrative of Russian interference, with possible collusion, something that turned out to be true (interference) and collusion was left uncertain (Muller stated quite clearly that if he could show Trump didn't collude, then Mueller would have said so, but that he was not going to say so). "'The president was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed,' Mueller told the House judiciary committee, adding that Trump could theoretically be indicted after he leaves office." [1] Then the Trump DOJ didn't release the summary of the report, but their edited version, leaving plenty out, in order to get people like you to write what you just did. Mueller was so outraged at how the DOJ spun the report, that he immediately did a press conference about it, an unprecedented step. Here is Mueller's letter to Barr on exactly this [2]. Once Trump is out of office, and several years have gone by without charges, then maybe you can claim these concerns were false, but they most certainly were not fabrications or lies. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/mueller-refutes-trumps-no-collusion-no-obstruction-line/ https://www.politico.eu/article/mueller-refutes-trumps-no-co... [2] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/01/719004457/read-muellers-letter-expressing-concern-about-barr-s-summary-of-his-report https://www.npr.org/2019/05/01/719004457/read-muellers-lette...
  - the_drunkard 6y ago
    > but they most certainly were not fabrications or lies. i'd strongly beg to differ. fake news was at its peak during the first two years of "Russia-gate" with networks reporting on hearsay and drawing wild conclusions irrespective of hard evidence. journalistic integrity was thrown to the wind. it seemed as if every week a "we got him" story broke only to fizzle as it turned out to be false. the linked article below offers some examples of these fake news stories about Trump. and I do recognize that the second quote is written by Barr, not Mueller. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-million https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-mill...
    - filoeleven 6y ago
      I don’t think parent comment should be downvoted. I pushed back too in another comment above about the validation of evidence. IMO the evidence is mostly untested, and the_drunkard is correct about the media’s premature response. Also, given current events, here’s a fun quote from the linked article: > The Special Prosecutor literally became a religious figure during the last few years, with votive candles sold in his image and Saturday Night Live cast members singing “All I Want for Christmas is You” to him featuring the rhymey line: “Mueller please come through, because the only option is a coup.”
- filoeleven 6y ago
  > Nanci Pelosi tweet May 2017: Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts. Which...they didn’t do. Republicans blocked having witnesses or documents appear during the Senate impeachment proceedings. So no, collusion was not largely proven to be false, because once it moved to the Senate, nobody was called to testify under oath since Republicans blocked it. The Mueller report remains largely unvetted, and while its conclusions are weak due to Justice Department policy on what a sitting president can be charged with (or accused of? I am not clear on this distinction), its evidence appears to be strong. We don’t know if it holds up or not. It was never rigorously examined, because Republicans blocked it.
  - the_drunkard 6y ago
    > It was never rigorously examined, because Republicans blocked it. in my opinion, the objective person would likely agree that Trump and his campaign have been rigorously examined both formally (by Mueller and his team) and informally (by the media). i don't intend to change topics here, but in context of your usage of "never rigorously examined" one could point to Hunter Biden's international dealings as lacking rigorous examination, as stories on this topic have even been actively suppressed.
    - creato 6y ago
      The Mueller report is pretty damning. Unfortunately almost no one actually read it, and Barr's "summary" was allowed to dominate the news before it was released.
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  > one that largely proved to be false and filled with fabricated stories. And that's bullshit. Mueller Report was a damning document that Mueller didn't have the guts to force Barr's hand, and Barr gleefully lied about and declined prosecution. Furthermore, the objections by many about the election being "hijacked" was not an actual claim to voter-box or voter fraud, but of disinformation and foreign interference. You should stop posting false whatabouts on HN, it's unbecoming.
  - the_drunkard 6y ago
    please don't take my comment out of context. i was referring to the narratives spun by the media as largely being false and filled with fabricated stories, not the Mueller report (something you're clearly still clinging to). as recent as June of 2020 the NYT ran a piece about "Russian bounties in Afghanistan" that was effectively walked back shortly thereafter after it was deemed "less than conclusive". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghan... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/u-s-officials-say-intel-russian-bounties-was-less-conclusive-n1233199 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/u-s-offic... https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1282646230779285504 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1282646230779285504 i hope you find this more... becoming :)
CivBase 6y ago
Can you point to any instance where Ron Paul lied about our elections? Genuine question. I don't follow Ron Paul, but that seems out of character from what I've seen of him many years ago.
- m463 6y ago
  My take is that Ron Paul is probably one of the most reasonable people in politics. What's ironic is that people thought he was crazy when he said it would be possible to abolish the IRS, even though he had all the history and facts to back it up.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > My take is that Ron Paul is probably one of the most reasonable people in politics. My take is that he optimistically might almost break into the top 525 most reasonable people in Congress.
- metalliqaz 6y ago
  I don't follow him either, but it is almost certain that the movement of "stolen election" talk from allowed to verboten is what caused his page to be suspended. I don't have access to his previous facebook content, so I can't search it.
  - dahdum 6y ago
    I don't think it's the election, I don't see anything from him that would tie to that. I'm guessing it's all the anti-vax nonsense he's wrapped up in. > A Nursing Home had Zero Coronavirus Deaths. Then, It Vaccinates Residents for Coronavirus and the Deaths Begin. http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2021/january/10/a-nursing-home-had-zero-coronavirus-deaths-then-it-vaccinates-residents-for-coronavirus-and-the-deaths-begin/ http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/20...
Marinus 6y ago
What does your comment have to do with Ron Paul?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tuatoru 6y ago
> Facebook is finally waking up to the reality that lies about our elections are well on their way to starting a civil war. I think it more likely that Facebook is finally waking up to the imminent risk of heavy and heavy-handed regulation, possibly destroying its business model. I haven't seen evidence that Facebook cares about anything but Facebook.
quotemstr 6y ago
> People don't seem to understand how close we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. You're right, but not for the reason you think.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> People don't seem to understand how close we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. Oh, I think more of them do than seem to, but some of them are either hedging their bets with regard to the coming regime in case it happens, or outright supportive. Both groups have a strong motivation not to publicly acknowledge the risk.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
I know how close people say we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. A real attempt at fascism would have had much better armed and organized attackers. This was a self-directed mob, which was bad enough; real fascism would have had quasi-official orchestration instead of letting people freelance. That lack of the real power behind it makes me question your narrative. But I see how quickly and how broadly conservative people are getting muzzled and vilified. I can to some degree see sense in taking away the microphone (and networking apparatus) between now and Jan 20. On the other hand, I can see it becoming the start of a witch hunt. How far are you going to go to shut down conservative voices, and for how long? The fact that it's hitting Ron Paul indicates to me that it is over-reaching reasonable bounds, even for the short term.

admiralspoo 6y ago

Google and Facebook already have documented ability to rig elections, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_manipulation_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_manipulation_eff... Politicians, including the incoming regime, are at their mercy and ought to be careful not to step on any toes.

metalliqaz 6y ago
They don't seem to be shy about criticizing big tech at all.

the_drunkard 6y ago

> lies about our elections for the past 4 years the media spun a narrative of Russian collusion, one that largely proved to be false and filled with fabricated stories. Nanci Pelosi tweet May 2017: Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts. https://twitter.com/speakerpelosi/status/864522009048494080?lang=en https://twitter.com/speakerpelosi/status/864522009048494080?...

hehehaha 6y ago
You mean the investigation that the Trump administration actively obstructed?
- whateveracct 6y ago
  wonder why this is downvoted it's pretty fact-based and in plain sight probably normal HN bias?
  - hehehaha 6y ago
    Think it came off as political. Wasn’t my intention.
    - whateveracct 6y ago
      HNers take any claim of Trump criminality as political. Kinda skeevy but it is what it is.
- razius 6y ago
  Yet she wasn't purged from all social media?
ChrisLomont 6y ago
>the media spun a narrative of Russian collusion No, the media spun the narrative of Russian interference, with possible collusion, something that turned out to be true (interference) and collusion was left uncertain (Muller stated quite clearly that if he could show Trump didn't collude, then Mueller would have said so, but that he was not going to say so). "'The president was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed,' Mueller told the House judiciary committee, adding that Trump could theoretically be indicted after he leaves office." [1] Then the Trump DOJ didn't release the summary of the report, but their edited version, leaving plenty out, in order to get people like you to write what you just did. Mueller was so outraged at how the DOJ spun the report, that he immediately did a press conference about it, an unprecedented step. Here is Mueller's letter to Barr on exactly this [2]. Once Trump is out of office, and several years have gone by without charges, then maybe you can claim these concerns were false, but they most certainly were not fabrications or lies. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/mueller-refutes-trumps-no-collusion-no-obstruction-line/ https://www.politico.eu/article/mueller-refutes-trumps-no-co... [2] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/01/719004457/read-muellers-letter-expressing-concern-about-barr-s-summary-of-his-report https://www.npr.org/2019/05/01/719004457/read-muellers-lette...
- the_drunkard 6y ago
  > but they most certainly were not fabrications or lies. i'd strongly beg to differ. fake news was at its peak during the first two years of "Russia-gate" with networks reporting on hearsay and drawing wild conclusions irrespective of hard evidence. journalistic integrity was thrown to the wind. it seemed as if every week a "we got him" story broke only to fizzle as it turned out to be false. the linked article below offers some examples of these fake news stories about Trump. and I do recognize that the second quote is written by Barr, not Mueller. https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-million https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-mill...
  - filoeleven 6y ago
    I don’t think parent comment should be downvoted. I pushed back too in another comment above about the validation of evidence. IMO the evidence is mostly untested, and the_drunkard is correct about the media’s premature response. Also, given current events, here’s a fun quote from the linked article: > The Special Prosecutor literally became a religious figure during the last few years, with votive candles sold in his image and Saturday Night Live cast members singing “All I Want for Christmas is You” to him featuring the rhymey line: “Mueller please come through, because the only option is a coup.”
filoeleven 6y ago
> Nanci Pelosi tweet May 2017: Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts. Which...they didn’t do. Republicans blocked having witnesses or documents appear during the Senate impeachment proceedings. So no, collusion was not largely proven to be false, because once it moved to the Senate, nobody was called to testify under oath since Republicans blocked it. The Mueller report remains largely unvetted, and while its conclusions are weak due to Justice Department policy on what a sitting president can be charged with (or accused of? I am not clear on this distinction), its evidence appears to be strong. We don’t know if it holds up or not. It was never rigorously examined, because Republicans blocked it.
- the_drunkard 6y ago
  > It was never rigorously examined, because Republicans blocked it. in my opinion, the objective person would likely agree that Trump and his campaign have been rigorously examined both formally (by Mueller and his team) and informally (by the media). i don't intend to change topics here, but in context of your usage of "never rigorously examined" one could point to Hunter Biden's international dealings as lacking rigorous examination, as stories on this topic have even been actively suppressed.
  - creato 6y ago
    The Mueller report is pretty damning. Unfortunately almost no one actually read it, and Barr's "summary" was allowed to dominate the news before it was released.
unethical_ban 6y ago
> one that largely proved to be false and filled with fabricated stories. And that's bullshit. Mueller Report was a damning document that Mueller didn't have the guts to force Barr's hand, and Barr gleefully lied about and declined prosecution. Furthermore, the objections by many about the election being "hijacked" was not an actual claim to voter-box or voter fraud, but of disinformation and foreign interference. You should stop posting false whatabouts on HN, it's unbecoming.
- the_drunkard 6y ago
  please don't take my comment out of context. i was referring to the narratives spun by the media as largely being false and filled with fabricated stories, not the Mueller report (something you're clearly still clinging to). as recent as June of 2020 the NYT ran a piece about "Russian bounties in Afghanistan" that was effectively walked back shortly thereafter after it was deemed "less than conclusive". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghan... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/u-s-officials-say-intel-russian-bounties-was-less-conclusive-n1233199 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/u-s-offic... https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1282646230779285504 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1282646230779285504 i hope you find this more... becoming :)

CivBase 6y ago

Can you point to any instance where Ron Paul lied about our elections? Genuine question. I don't follow Ron Paul, but that seems out of character from what I've seen of him many years ago.

m463 6y ago
My take is that Ron Paul is probably one of the most reasonable people in politics. What's ironic is that people thought he was crazy when he said it would be possible to abolish the IRS, even though he had all the history and facts to back it up.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > My take is that Ron Paul is probably one of the most reasonable people in politics. My take is that he optimistically might almost break into the top 525 most reasonable people in Congress.
metalliqaz 6y ago
I don't follow him either, but it is almost certain that the movement of "stolen election" talk from allowed to verboten is what caused his page to be suspended. I don't have access to his previous facebook content, so I can't search it.
- dahdum 6y ago
  I don't think it's the election, I don't see anything from him that would tie to that. I'm guessing it's all the anti-vax nonsense he's wrapped up in. > A Nursing Home had Zero Coronavirus Deaths. Then, It Vaccinates Residents for Coronavirus and the Deaths Begin. http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2021/january/10/a-nursing-home-had-zero-coronavirus-deaths-then-it-vaccinates-residents-for-coronavirus-and-the-deaths-begin/ http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/20...

Marinus 6y ago

What does your comment have to do with Ron Paul?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tuatoru 6y ago

> Facebook is finally waking up to the reality that lies about our elections are well on their way to starting a civil war. I think it more likely that Facebook is finally waking up to the imminent risk of heavy and heavy-handed regulation, possibly destroying its business model. I haven't seen evidence that Facebook cares about anything but Facebook.

quotemstr 6y ago

> People don't seem to understand how close we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. You're right, but not for the reason you think.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> People don't seem to understand how close we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. Oh, I think more of them do than seem to, but some of them are either hedging their bets with regard to the coming regime in case it happens, or outright supportive. Both groups have a strong motivation not to publicly acknowledge the risk.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

I know how close people say we are to an unrecoverable fall into fascism. A real attempt at fascism would have had much better armed and organized attackers. This was a self-directed mob, which was bad enough; real fascism would have had quasi-official orchestration instead of letting people freelance. That lack of the real power behind it makes me question your narrative. But I see how quickly and how broadly conservative people are getting muzzled and vilified. I can to some degree see sense in taking away the microphone (and networking apparatus) between now and Jan 20. On the other hand, I can see it becoming the start of a witch hunt. How far are you going to go to shut down conservative voices, and for how long? The fact that it's hitting Ron Paul indicates to me that it is over-reaching reasonable bounds, even for the short term.