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> Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant

> Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. Stagnation is likely as good as it'll get and there's every reason to believe it'll be run into the ground eventually. I see Jack Ma as a sort of Chinese Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. Shooting yourself in the foot like this seems to be incredibly stupid. American government officials would never consider even hobbling someone like Jeff Bezos... that could be partially out of fear (he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution), but its more because of the incredible value someone like a Bezos, Musk, or Ma brings to your economy.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
whimsicalism 6y ago
> There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. > that could be partially out of fear (he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution), but its more because of the incredible value someone like a Bezos, Musk, or Ma brings to your economy. I think it is actually much more about the former than the latter.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  > We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. Eh... Do I think Bezos is a visionary responsible for all of Amazon's success? No. But culture comes from the top. There's a lot of ways to run a company poorly, especially if it's doing something novel and not just churning out mundane products. The big ones involve bureaucracy and short term profits. If Jeff Bezos died, I'm sure Amazon would be just fine. Tesla maybe not. How mature is Alibaba and Ant?
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    People thought the same thing about apple when Jobs died but it's up 900% in the 9 years since his death
    - klmadfejno 6y ago
      Stock price isn't especially meaningful in the context of the current economic times. I'd say Jobs dying is more or less along the lines of what my worldview expectations are. Apple is fine. But its product offerings tend to be a lot shittier and generic.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      Stock prices being up is a function of zero / near-zero percent interest rates and the injection of enormous amounts of capital into the system from the Fed just printing, literally, trillions of dollars. Capital has very few "good" places to be allocated at the moment - really for the past decade or so - and COVID-19 put everything into hyperdrive for the tech sector. Economics Explained on YouTube has a good video about this.
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        Apple's relative stock price has increased, so the general increase of equity prices doesn't explain this. Low interest rates means that people will search for yields elsewhere, it doesn't intrinsically mean they would settle on Apple outside of solid management.
        klmadfejno 6y ago
        Doesn't mean anything besides people want to buy Apple stock, for a myriad number of reasons.
    - bitstan 6y ago
      Jobs rescued Apple from the brink of bankruptcy.. There would be no Apple to be up 900%.
  - 6y ago
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  > We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. Seems to me that China also has this theory at the moment, with Xi.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    Cross-cultural cognitive biases (: I think they still have catch up to play with us, but I'm sure will be there soon enough.
razius 6y ago
> Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. Stagnation is likely as good as it'll get and there's every reason to believe it'll be run into the ground eventually. Most likely but China is a communist country, this is how communism works. They consider that there are things that are above earnings / profits and one of the core tenets is that you should never fall out of line or disrespect the party.
jonplackett 6y ago
I saw a discussion a while back between Musk and Ma. I think you do a disservice to Musk to compare them. He really didn't seem able to keep up.
- mssundaram 6y ago
  Wouldn't it be a disservice to Ma if you're saying Musk couldn't keep up?
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    I think they are saying that Ma couldn't keep up.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    I’m saying it’s a disservice to compare them, since I felt like thy were in different intelectual leagues. But I’d say it’s a bit unfair to compare musk to most people
- threatofrain 6y ago
  There’s a lot of reason why Jack Ma might not want to say anything interesting, esp with asymmetrical stakes where for Elon this is just fun banter and brand building, but missteps by Jack Ma could be severe.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    > but missteps by Jack Ma could be severe. Looks like missteps by Jack Ma were severe.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    This was quite a while back when he didn’t seem that worried. It wasn’t that he wasn’t speaking. I just thought Musk came across A LOT better. Just my opinion though. Here’s the video if you want to form your own: https://youtu.be/WSKYWu-S2G0 https://youtu.be/WSKYWu-S2G0
gph 6y ago
>(he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution) That's a HUGE over exaggeration. Yes money matters, but only so much and it very much matters where that funding comes from. That's why McConnell still has a job despite his opponent spending three times as much. People knew that money was coming from outsiders trying to unseat him. Bezos or some other billionaire trying to pour an ungodly amount of money into a political campaign is more likely to backfire than help.
- paconbork 6y ago
  The main problem was that Kentucky went R+26. Throwing money at a Dem candidate who isn't Manchin, hoping to overcome that difference was an exercise in futility. You'd have better luck trying to primary him. Sure, money can't do the impossible, but if you only need a few percentage points it's pretty likely to help
  - gph 6y ago
    Yea but the OP was making the claim that no US government official would dare stand up to Bezos for fear of him outspending them out of office. Entrenched incumbents in non-battleground states/districts really don't have that fear at all.
kennywinker 6y ago
Like how Apple has crashed and burnt since Steve Jobs' death? Oh... wait, their stock is up 11x and their revenue is up 2.5x. Seems like things are actually going fine. Maybe we attribute the success of companies almost entirely to the one man at the top, instead of to the thousands of workers who make up the company.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Apple wouldn't exist without a great man to have led it back from, quite literally, the brink of death... Or did you forget where Apple was when Gil Amelio got ousted for Steve to come back?
- thu2111 6y ago
  Microsoft revenue increased a lot when Steve Ballmer was in charge. I don't think anyone would claim MS was a great organisation during that period though, given how many major industry trends they just totally missed. Ballmer didn't trash the business but the action moved elsewhere. As for Apple, putting the questionable meaning of the stock market to one side for a moment, when was the last time they did anything truly exciting, that cut their competitors legs out from under them? The M1 chip? That's the only thing I can think of for a long time, and it's a bit unclear how much consumers will care vs geeks.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

whimsicalism 6y ago

> There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. > that could be partially out of fear (he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution), but its more because of the incredible value someone like a Bezos, Musk, or Ma brings to your economy. I think it is actually much more about the former than the latter.

klmadfejno 6y ago
> We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. Eh... Do I think Bezos is a visionary responsible for all of Amazon's success? No. But culture comes from the top. There's a lot of ways to run a company poorly, especially if it's doing something novel and not just churning out mundane products. The big ones involve bureaucracy and short term profits. If Jeff Bezos died, I'm sure Amazon would be just fine. Tesla maybe not. How mature is Alibaba and Ant?
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  People thought the same thing about apple when Jobs died but it's up 900% in the 9 years since his death
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    Stock price isn't especially meaningful in the context of the current economic times. I'd say Jobs dying is more or less along the lines of what my worldview expectations are. Apple is fine. But its product offerings tend to be a lot shittier and generic.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    Stock prices being up is a function of zero / near-zero percent interest rates and the injection of enormous amounts of capital into the system from the Fed just printing, literally, trillions of dollars. Capital has very few "good" places to be allocated at the moment - really for the past decade or so - and COVID-19 put everything into hyperdrive for the tech sector. Economics Explained on YouTube has a good video about this.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      Apple's relative stock price has increased, so the general increase of equity prices doesn't explain this. Low interest rates means that people will search for yields elsewhere, it doesn't intrinsically mean they would settle on Apple outside of solid management.
      - klmadfejno 6y ago
        Doesn't mean anything besides people want to buy Apple stock, for a myriad number of reasons.
  - bitstan 6y ago
    Jobs rescued Apple from the brink of bankruptcy.. There would be no Apple to be up 900%.
- 6y ago
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
> We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. Seems to me that China also has this theory at the moment, with Xi.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  Cross-cultural cognitive biases (: I think they still have catch up to play with us, but I'm sure will be there soon enough.

razius 6y ago

> Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. Stagnation is likely as good as it'll get and there's every reason to believe it'll be run into the ground eventually. Most likely but China is a communist country, this is how communism works. They consider that there are things that are above earnings / profits and one of the core tenets is that you should never fall out of line or disrespect the party.

jonplackett 6y ago

I saw a discussion a while back between Musk and Ma. I think you do a disservice to Musk to compare them. He really didn't seem able to keep up.

mssundaram 6y ago
Wouldn't it be a disservice to Ma if you're saying Musk couldn't keep up?
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  I think they are saying that Ma couldn't keep up.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  I’m saying it’s a disservice to compare them, since I felt like thy were in different intelectual leagues. But I’d say it’s a bit unfair to compare musk to most people
threatofrain 6y ago
There’s a lot of reason why Jack Ma might not want to say anything interesting, esp with asymmetrical stakes where for Elon this is just fun banter and brand building, but missteps by Jack Ma could be severe.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  > but missteps by Jack Ma could be severe. Looks like missteps by Jack Ma were severe.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  This was quite a while back when he didn’t seem that worried. It wasn’t that he wasn’t speaking. I just thought Musk came across A LOT better. Just my opinion though. Here’s the video if you want to form your own: https://youtu.be/WSKYWu-S2G0 https://youtu.be/WSKYWu-S2G0

gph 6y ago

>(he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution) That's a HUGE over exaggeration. Yes money matters, but only so much and it very much matters where that funding comes from. That's why McConnell still has a job despite his opponent spending three times as much. People knew that money was coming from outsiders trying to unseat him. Bezos or some other billionaire trying to pour an ungodly amount of money into a political campaign is more likely to backfire than help.

paconbork 6y ago
The main problem was that Kentucky went R+26. Throwing money at a Dem candidate who isn't Manchin, hoping to overcome that difference was an exercise in futility. You'd have better luck trying to primary him. Sure, money can't do the impossible, but if you only need a few percentage points it's pretty likely to help
- gph 6y ago
  Yea but the OP was making the claim that no US government official would dare stand up to Bezos for fear of him outspending them out of office. Entrenched incumbents in non-battleground states/districts really don't have that fear at all.

kennywinker 6y ago

Like how Apple has crashed and burnt since Steve Jobs' death? Oh... wait, their stock is up 11x and their revenue is up 2.5x. Seems like things are actually going fine. Maybe we attribute the success of companies almost entirely to the one man at the top, instead of to the thousands of workers who make up the company.

cbozeman 6y ago
Apple wouldn't exist without a great man to have led it back from, quite literally, the brink of death... Or did you forget where Apple was when Gil Amelio got ousted for Steve to come back?
thu2111 6y ago
Microsoft revenue increased a lot when Steve Ballmer was in charge. I don't think anyone would claim MS was a great organisation during that period though, given how many major industry trends they just totally missed. Ballmer didn't trash the business but the action moved elsewhere. As for Apple, putting the questionable meaning of the stock market to one side for a moment, when was the last time they did anything truly exciting, that cut their competitors legs out from under them? The M1 chip? That's the only thing I can think of for a long time, and it's a bit unclear how much consumers will care vs geeks.