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I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absen

I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.

whimsicalism 6y ago
Shitty reporting is not always the CCPs fault.
xster 6y ago
How are you sourcing that conclusion? I'm not well versed but I enjoy watching finance related UGC and analyses on Bilibili. There's certainly tons of in-depth content and discussion about Ant's leveraging practices and the involvement of financial regulations.
Barrin92 6y ago
Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US people generally have actually a surprising amount of understanding of the basic structure of government, values and so on. You go to a very educated audience in the US or other Western nations and it's still embarrassing. And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant It's crazy how tied to a warped view of China people get. Like, I have serious issues with China too, but the picture many people seem to have in their mind is just not modern China whatsoever.
- quonn 6y ago
  > The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. > And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously. The West will mostly separate production within about a decade or two. It‘s not a problem at all.
  - bun_at_work 6y ago
    Do you have any sources to support the claim that the West will separate production within a decade or two?
    - quonn 6y ago
      My reading of the news in the last year or so and connecting the dots. I‘m not the only one saying it of course.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarmig 6y ago
    >> misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions > It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. This is exactly the kind of reductive thinking that is getting the West into trouble. There is no dictatorship system. At most, it points to a non-democratic system. But that term covers an incredibly wide variety of regimes, from 1920s Portugal to Latin American Cold War authoritarian regimes to the USSR to Maoist China to contemporary China, and all of them are very different creatures. The differences between these are much wider than the differences between democratic systems (e.g. US vs Israel vs India), which are already very wide.
    - SoylentYellow 6y ago
      How is calling the CCP a dictatorship getting the West into trouble?
- foobarian 6y ago
  Would love some pointers to read up on. I am imagining something that talks about how provincial governments work, any factions at play, day-to-day politics of getting things to happen whether by official process or informal etc.
  - foobarian 6y ago
    Having reread this comment now I realize I would love a reading list like this for the United States too :D
  - scarmig 6y ago
    https://sinocism.com/ https://sinocism.com/ is one of the better US sources.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    I second scarmig's recommendation of Bill Bishop's blog, it's a great resource and he publishes free pieces regularly so you don't need to subscribe. Another great free resources is the sinica podcast. I also recommend following Dan Wang's blog, he works at Gavekal Dragonomics and generally writes in-depth about manufacturing and the semiconductor industry in China, but also China more broadly. His recent post at the end of the year might be a good start. 'Reading the China Dream' is another good source, mostly commenting on and making accessible Chinese intellectual debates. https://supchina.com/series/sinica/ https://supchina.com/series/sinica/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://www.readingthechinadream.com/ https://www.readingthechinadream.com/
- onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
  The US government isn't really THAT much different from Japan and all of Europe, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, etc... Even India and, theoretically, even Russia, too. So, it's not surprising the average Chinese person has a decent understanding of how a basic democracy works. In some ways, China is also not THAT much different, either. But it is more different than pretty much every other major economy in the world. I mean, for one, it does not even put on a charade of being a democracy. It pretends to be communist (economically), but in a lot of ways it is more capitalist than a lot of the West. And the scale of the government is enormous. It's much more different, and there's really not much of a reason for many people in the US to have a decent idea of how it works. China's government does not affect our daily lives that much - at least not yet. And Americans (like most people) are mostly concerned with themselves.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > in a lot of ways it is more capitalist than a lot of the West China definitely has big market aspects and private ownership, but I also think this can be overstated. There is still massive public ownership of major companies and banks in China and land in all urban areas is publicly owned as well.
    - tsimionescu 6y ago
      Is it actually publically owned, or is it state owned? There is a major difference between these two outside of a democracy.
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        Public control is a continuum rather than an on/off switch in my view. They are owned by the state which is nominally responsive to the public, albeit very indirectly. But, then again, much of our economy and laws are determined by unelected councils (the Fed, the SCOTUS, etc.).
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    I've yet to find a country where that country's inhabitants aren't mostly concerned with themselves and I've been to quite a few countries.
- jcytong 6y ago
  Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated) Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades. My people in HK are screaming that the West previous engagement policies have proven again and again to be ineffective. It's believed that the only way is to "distrust and verify" and not kowtow to their ways like what the West had been doing for the previous decades. I do not claim to know everything about how the Chinese system functions and can only observe how my immediate network is being oppressed but still hope that there's a way to engage the CCP if at all possible.
  - alisonatwork 6y ago
    It's extremely difficult to get unbiased information on China. However, there are some good sources. If you have the money, Sinocism[0] is a great newsletter that collects the top (mostly political) stories of the day. Some other good (free) Substacks are Chinarrative[1], which publishes translated human interest stories, and Chinese Journal Review[2], which translates abstracts of a selection of academic papers. If you would like a local insight into more young/liberal perspectives, Sixth Tone[3] is fairly interesting. Be aware that this is a state-owned media source, so it has an interest in presenting China as progressive in ways that outside of middle class communities in top tier cities it usually isn't. Just because it's state-owned doesn't mean it's not informative, though! China Media Project[4] is perhaps a useful accompanying source to try understand exactly how the state media is biased. Of the western media, New York Times probably does the best reporting on China (they even have a Chinese language version), but like all western media they struggle to get access. Inside China, Caixin is probably the best newspaper, but unfortunately it is pay-walled. From left wing perspective I can also recommend Made In China Journal[5]. [0] https://sinocism.com/ https://sinocism.com/ [1] https://chinarrative.substack.com/ https://chinarrative.substack.com/ [2] https://chinesejournalreview.substack.com/ https://chinesejournalreview.substack.com/ [3] http://www.sixthtone.com/ http://www.sixthtone.com/ [4] https://chinamediaproject.org/ https://chinamediaproject.org/ [5] https://madeinchinajournal.com/ https://madeinchinajournal.com/
- kurthr 6y ago
  Hmmm... I'd agree that many people in the west don't have much of an idea how China or the CCP work. Calling them communist is pretty hilarious even if the word is in their name. The country has grown into it's own new empire much more like those of old, I think shaped by the expectations and education of its people. I'd also agree that because many of China's educated upper class (political and economic) have been schooled or at least traveled or met foreigners from the US or other democracies, they understand many of the mechanics. However, I would completely disagree that even a bare majority of Chinese have much conception at all how western politics work. Even those who are educated in the US/Europe rarely understand politics except at a single point in time. I would count myself as one who has a fair knowledge of politics and business in China having spent almost 2 decades traveling and working with businesses there. I have some understanding of their history, socialization and education, as well as, business practices. What I can say is that they are very different depending on where you are (Shenzhen/HK vs Shanghai vs Beijing vs Chongqing). They speak differently, they live differently, and they do business differently. Also, China's politico-economic environment has changed very significantly in the past 20 years often with political leaders. and Xi has been one of the more rapid/dramatic changes. I've learned that I do not understand the inner workings of China/CCP... even the workings of the US political system over the last 4 years border on incomprehensible. I would say that some of the business people I have seen most taken advantage of are Chinese expatriates who invested back into their homes and had relatively large businesses taken from them, because they thought they understood - align your interests carefully with someone who is on the ground or even family can take everything (this wasn't a single instance).
  - hhjinks 6y ago
    >Calling them communist is pretty hilarious even if the word is in their name Why? China was clearly a communist project, and this is what they became. Why is the end result we see in reality less valid than the theory?
    - kurthr 6y ago
      For the same reason we don't refer to Hitler as a socialist. There are still places with actual communes. Words have meaning so unless you're using them as a proper noun or acronym (CCP, NAZI) you follow common usage. Just because a word is useful for demagoguery or insult doesn't make it correct.

I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.

whimsicalism 6y ago

Shitty reporting is not always the CCPs fault.

xster 6y ago

How are you sourcing that conclusion? I'm not well versed but I enjoy watching finance related UGC and analyses on Bilibili. There's certainly tons of in-depth content and discussion about Ant's leveraging practices and the involvement of financial regulations.

Barrin92 6y ago

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US people generally have actually a surprising amount of understanding of the basic structure of government, values and so on. You go to a very educated audience in the US or other Western nations and it's still embarrassing. And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant It's crazy how tied to a warped view of China people get. Like, I have serious issues with China too, but the picture many people seem to have in their mind is just not modern China whatsoever.
quonn 6y ago
> The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. > And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously. The West will mostly separate production within about a decade or two. It‘s not a problem at all.
- bun_at_work 6y ago
  Do you have any sources to support the claim that the West will separate production within a decade or two?
  - quonn 6y ago
    My reading of the news in the last year or so and connecting the dots. I‘m not the only one saying it of course.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- scarmig 6y ago
  >> misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions > It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. This is exactly the kind of reductive thinking that is getting the West into trouble. There is no dictatorship system. At most, it points to a non-democratic system. But that term covers an incredibly wide variety of regimes, from 1920s Portugal to Latin American Cold War authoritarian regimes to the USSR to Maoist China to contemporary China, and all of them are very different creatures. The differences between these are much wider than the differences between democratic systems (e.g. US vs Israel vs India), which are already very wide.
  - SoylentYellow 6y ago
    How is calling the CCP a dictatorship getting the West into trouble?
foobarian 6y ago
Would love some pointers to read up on. I am imagining something that talks about how provincial governments work, any factions at play, day-to-day politics of getting things to happen whether by official process or informal etc.
- foobarian 6y ago
  Having reread this comment now I realize I would love a reading list like this for the United States too :D
- scarmig 6y ago
  https://sinocism.com/ https://sinocism.com/ is one of the better US sources.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  I second scarmig's recommendation of Bill Bishop's blog, it's a great resource and he publishes free pieces regularly so you don't need to subscribe. Another great free resources is the sinica podcast. I also recommend following Dan Wang's blog, he works at Gavekal Dragonomics and generally writes in-depth about manufacturing and the semiconductor industry in China, but also China more broadly. His recent post at the end of the year might be a good start. 'Reading the China Dream' is another good source, mostly commenting on and making accessible Chinese intellectual debates. https://supchina.com/series/sinica/ https://supchina.com/series/sinica/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://www.readingthechinadream.com/ https://www.readingthechinadream.com/
onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
The US government isn't really THAT much different from Japan and all of Europe, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, etc... Even India and, theoretically, even Russia, too. So, it's not surprising the average Chinese person has a decent understanding of how a basic democracy works. In some ways, China is also not THAT much different, either. But it is more different than pretty much every other major economy in the world. I mean, for one, it does not even put on a charade of being a democracy. It pretends to be communist (economically), but in a lot of ways it is more capitalist than a lot of the West. And the scale of the government is enormous. It's much more different, and there's really not much of a reason for many people in the US to have a decent idea of how it works. China's government does not affect our daily lives that much - at least not yet. And Americans (like most people) are mostly concerned with themselves.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > in a lot of ways it is more capitalist than a lot of the West China definitely has big market aspects and private ownership, but I also think this can be overstated. There is still massive public ownership of major companies and banks in China and land in all urban areas is publicly owned as well.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    Is it actually publically owned, or is it state owned? There is a major difference between these two outside of a democracy.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      Public control is a continuum rather than an on/off switch in my view. They are owned by the state which is nominally responsive to the public, albeit very indirectly. But, then again, much of our economy and laws are determined by unelected councils (the Fed, the SCOTUS, etc.).
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I've yet to find a country where that country's inhabitants aren't mostly concerned with themselves and I've been to quite a few countries.
jcytong 6y ago
Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated) Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades. My people in HK are screaming that the West previous engagement policies have proven again and again to be ineffective. It's believed that the only way is to "distrust and verify" and not kowtow to their ways like what the West had been doing for the previous decades. I do not claim to know everything about how the Chinese system functions and can only observe how my immediate network is being oppressed but still hope that there's a way to engage the CCP if at all possible.
- alisonatwork 6y ago
  It's extremely difficult to get unbiased information on China. However, there are some good sources. If you have the money, Sinocism[0] is a great newsletter that collects the top (mostly political) stories of the day. Some other good (free) Substacks are Chinarrative[1], which publishes translated human interest stories, and Chinese Journal Review[2], which translates abstracts of a selection of academic papers. If you would like a local insight into more young/liberal perspectives, Sixth Tone[3] is fairly interesting. Be aware that this is a state-owned media source, so it has an interest in presenting China as progressive in ways that outside of middle class communities in top tier cities it usually isn't. Just because it's state-owned doesn't mean it's not informative, though! China Media Project[4] is perhaps a useful accompanying source to try understand exactly how the state media is biased. Of the western media, New York Times probably does the best reporting on China (they even have a Chinese language version), but like all western media they struggle to get access. Inside China, Caixin is probably the best newspaper, but unfortunately it is pay-walled. From left wing perspective I can also recommend Made In China Journal[5]. [0] https://sinocism.com/ https://sinocism.com/ [1] https://chinarrative.substack.com/ https://chinarrative.substack.com/ [2] https://chinesejournalreview.substack.com/ https://chinesejournalreview.substack.com/ [3] http://www.sixthtone.com/ http://www.sixthtone.com/ [4] https://chinamediaproject.org/ https://chinamediaproject.org/ [5] https://madeinchinajournal.com/ https://madeinchinajournal.com/
kurthr 6y ago
Hmmm... I'd agree that many people in the west don't have much of an idea how China or the CCP work. Calling them communist is pretty hilarious even if the word is in their name. The country has grown into it's own new empire much more like those of old, I think shaped by the expectations and education of its people. I'd also agree that because many of China's educated upper class (political and economic) have been schooled or at least traveled or met foreigners from the US or other democracies, they understand many of the mechanics. However, I would completely disagree that even a bare majority of Chinese have much conception at all how western politics work. Even those who are educated in the US/Europe rarely understand politics except at a single point in time. I would count myself as one who has a fair knowledge of politics and business in China having spent almost 2 decades traveling and working with businesses there. I have some understanding of their history, socialization and education, as well as, business practices. What I can say is that they are very different depending on where you are (Shenzhen/HK vs Shanghai vs Beijing vs Chongqing). They speak differently, they live differently, and they do business differently. Also, China's politico-economic environment has changed very significantly in the past 20 years often with political leaders. and Xi has been one of the more rapid/dramatic changes. I've learned that I do not understand the inner workings of China/CCP... even the workings of the US political system over the last 4 years border on incomprehensible. I would say that some of the business people I have seen most taken advantage of are Chinese expatriates who invested back into their homes and had relatively large businesses taken from them, because they thought they understood - align your interests carefully with someone who is on the ground or even family can take everything (this wasn't a single instance).
- hhjinks 6y ago
  >Calling them communist is pretty hilarious even if the word is in their name Why? China was clearly a communist project, and this is what they became. Why is the end result we see in reality less valid than the theory?
  - kurthr 6y ago
    For the same reason we don't refer to Hitler as a socialist. There are still places with actual communes. Words have meaning so unless you're using them as a proper noun or acronym (CCP, NAZI) you follow common usage. Just because a word is useful for demagoguery or insult doesn't make it correct.