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The worst part about the giddy, gleeful way in which they are shutting down these echo chamber apps is the complete lack of thought as to how this impacts and f

by JPKab 6y ago

The worst part about the giddy, gleeful way in which they are shutting down these echo chamber apps is the complete lack of thought as to how this impacts and further radicalizes the users. I have a brother who is into Qanon and Alex Jones. All of this just feeds into and cements the narrative, and pushes him into alternative platforms where he is even less likely to hear or see more mainstream view points. It literally makes the problem that the people supporting this are CLAIMING they are trying to solve worse. I think it works wonderfully for the problem they are ACTUALLY solving, which is to cement an image of normal members of the political opposition as radicals on the verge of terrorism. I spoke to my brother last night. In an utterly predictable fashion, the Parler shutdown has made him worse. It turns out that when multiple global corporations collude to halt the communications of people who think they are being persecuted by a colluding body of global corporations, it makes their movement stronger. Who would have thought?

kiawe_fire 6y ago
I have some family members who are similar. In the past, I would be able to help talk people through their conspiracy theories to come to a logical conclusion that what they were hearing was too big, too harmful, or otherwise incapable of accomplishing anything to actually be true. That approach is becoming harder the bigger this becomes.
santoshalper 6y ago
I think perhaps you are correct, but I think we have come to the realization that people like your brother are gone and not likely to come back without serious help (medication, therapy, etc.) Just being exposed to other points of view does not seem to cure them. So given that, the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with this that this is essentially an enemy force living in our country - thousands of terrorists and perhaps millions of terrorist sympathizers. Our only goal at this point is to deny them aid, support, and the tools to organize effectively. Like it or not, we have entered into an era of asymmetric warfare with what amounts to a terroristic cult in the United States.
- JPKab 6y ago
  "I think perhaps you are correct, but I think we have come to the realization that people like your brother are gone and not likely to come back without serious help (medication, therapy, etc.) Just being exposed to other points of view does not seem to cure them." This is exactly part of the problem: The hyper-dramatic reaction to a mob of political extremists that forcibly took over a public government building that occurred when the mob was right-wing, and when the building was the DC Capitol, that didn't at all occur when entire neighborhoods, court houses, police precincts, and Federal Courthouses had the exact same occurrence, with a minimal reaction from the press. My brother isn't mentally ill, anymore than the people dressed in black shooting green lasers in the eyes of Federal officers guarding the Federal Courthouse in Portland are mentally ill. If anyone had bothered to focus on the dangerous radicalization when it was people who they happen to agree with politically, maybe we'd be a bit further ahead on countering it. Instead, we waited until it was people on the other side of the spectrum to notice how dangerous the echo chambers have become, and will label these people members of a cult, without acknowledging the absolute nut jobs on our own side. I was in Portland over the summer, and the crowds around the courthouse were mirror images of the crowds around the capitol. The amount of derangement on display was equivalent. Instead of MAGA gear, it was all black bloc gear, but that's about the only difference. You are clearly a part of this sectarian viewpoint, because I'm sure you're going to tell me numerous reasons why ONLY these people are terrorists, and not the people who occupied several city blocks of Seattle with assault rifles for months over the summer (with no permission from the residents). I view them all as lunatic, dangerous terrorists, whether they have a MAGA hat or BLM shirt on, provided they are engaging in destruction of property or violence.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I had multiple friends text me from Chicago, etc., about how the media wasn’t covering what was going on right around them. To me, it boils down to something simple? There are apparently two groups of people who will lie to you about whether it’s raining outside right now. One group just tried to overthrow the government, so I’m obviously hoping they lose. But that doesn’t make me thrilled about the other group using this as an opportunity to press their advantage and further dominate media outlets.
minimuffins 6y ago
> It turns out that when multiple global corporations collude to halt the communications of people who think they are being persecuted by a colluding body of global corporations, it makes their movement stronger. Who would have thought? A great point. I have yet to hear any response at all to this problem from the pro-censorship camp, much less a convincing one. Every attempt to solve the problem creates more problems.
rayiner 6y ago
It's not just the Qanon/Alex Jones folks. It pushes center-right people to hold ranks.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Only because they're being spun up. Trump's opposition is going to be giddy about Trump's downfall and Parler's removal, the same way Trump's supporters were giddy when Trump won. It is not reasonable to expect the mass of political partisans on Facebook and Twitter to adhere to a code of civility. If your principles are altered by the behavior of strangers on Twitter, they aren't really principles, right?
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > Trump's opposition is going to be giddy about Trump's downfall and Parler's removal Sure. But seeing how many of these “giddy” people are blue checkmarks at real news organizations makes folks antsy about conservative news outlets (including mainstream ones) coming under attack as a response to the the Capitol Hill riot.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      That's fair and it's a real problem I have with CNN, who I trust at this point slightly less than I trust MSNBC (who I trust not at all). But to take a counterexample: Tim Alberta, who wrote for The National Review, is very close to conservatives (his book _American Carnage_ is fantastic and incredibly well-sourced) is just as open about his personal opposition to this administration. This will sound glib, but a real problem we have in this moment is that there are two sides and one of them is simply correct.

by JPKab 6y ago

kiawe_fire 6y ago

I have some family members who are similar. In the past, I would be able to help talk people through their conspiracy theories to come to a logical conclusion that what they were hearing was too big, too harmful, or otherwise incapable of accomplishing anything to actually be true. That approach is becoming harder the bigger this becomes.

santoshalper 6y ago

I think perhaps you are correct, but I think we have come to the realization that people like your brother are gone and not likely to come back without serious help (medication, therapy, etc.) Just being exposed to other points of view does not seem to cure them. So given that, the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with this that this is essentially an enemy force living in our country - thousands of terrorists and perhaps millions of terrorist sympathizers. Our only goal at this point is to deny them aid, support, and the tools to organize effectively. Like it or not, we have entered into an era of asymmetric warfare with what amounts to a terroristic cult in the United States.

JPKab 6y ago
"I think perhaps you are correct, but I think we have come to the realization that people like your brother are gone and not likely to come back without serious help (medication, therapy, etc.) Just being exposed to other points of view does not seem to cure them." This is exactly part of the problem: The hyper-dramatic reaction to a mob of political extremists that forcibly took over a public government building that occurred when the mob was right-wing, and when the building was the DC Capitol, that didn't at all occur when entire neighborhoods, court houses, police precincts, and Federal Courthouses had the exact same occurrence, with a minimal reaction from the press. My brother isn't mentally ill, anymore than the people dressed in black shooting green lasers in the eyes of Federal officers guarding the Federal Courthouse in Portland are mentally ill. If anyone had bothered to focus on the dangerous radicalization when it was people who they happen to agree with politically, maybe we'd be a bit further ahead on countering it. Instead, we waited until it was people on the other side of the spectrum to notice how dangerous the echo chambers have become, and will label these people members of a cult, without acknowledging the absolute nut jobs on our own side. I was in Portland over the summer, and the crowds around the courthouse were mirror images of the crowds around the capitol. The amount of derangement on display was equivalent. Instead of MAGA gear, it was all black bloc gear, but that's about the only difference. You are clearly a part of this sectarian viewpoint, because I'm sure you're going to tell me numerous reasons why ONLY these people are terrorists, and not the people who occupied several city blocks of Seattle with assault rifles for months over the summer (with no permission from the residents). I view them all as lunatic, dangerous terrorists, whether they have a MAGA hat or BLM shirt on, provided they are engaging in destruction of property or violence.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I had multiple friends text me from Chicago, etc., about how the media wasn’t covering what was going on right around them. To me, it boils down to something simple? There are apparently two groups of people who will lie to you about whether it’s raining outside right now. One group just tried to overthrow the government, so I’m obviously hoping they lose. But that doesn’t make me thrilled about the other group using this as an opportunity to press their advantage and further dominate media outlets.

minimuffins 6y ago

> It turns out that when multiple global corporations collude to halt the communications of people who think they are being persecuted by a colluding body of global corporations, it makes their movement stronger. Who would have thought? A great point. I have yet to hear any response at all to this problem from the pro-censorship camp, much less a convincing one. Every attempt to solve the problem creates more problems.

rayiner 6y ago

It's not just the Qanon/Alex Jones folks. It pushes center-right people to hold ranks.

tptacek 6y ago
Only because they're being spun up. Trump's opposition is going to be giddy about Trump's downfall and Parler's removal, the same way Trump's supporters were giddy when Trump won. It is not reasonable to expect the mass of political partisans on Facebook and Twitter to adhere to a code of civility. If your principles are altered by the behavior of strangers on Twitter, they aren't really principles, right?
- rayiner 6y ago
  > Trump's opposition is going to be giddy about Trump's downfall and Parler's removal Sure. But seeing how many of these “giddy” people are blue checkmarks at real news organizations makes folks antsy about conservative news outlets (including mainstream ones) coming under attack as a response to the the Capitol Hill riot.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    That's fair and it's a real problem I have with CNN, who I trust at this point slightly less than I trust MSNBC (who I trust not at all). But to take a counterexample: Tim Alberta, who wrote for The National Review, is very close to conservatives (his book _American Carnage_ is fantastic and incredibly well-sourced) is just as open about his personal opposition to this administration. This will sound glib, but a real problem we have in this moment is that there are two sides and one of them is simply correct.