9 ms·

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very

by cubano 6y ago

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know plenty of you reading this with your secure jobs and paychecks have done illegal things and not been caught...well what if you were? I mean I hear all day all the "protections" that this group and that group are getting recognized for, and meanwhile all I want is an opportunity to work my ass off in the field that I have loved since I was a 13yo kid riding my bike to the local Radio Shack on weekends so I could literally sit-in the window display and program on the TRS-80 and save my "work" to a cassette drive. But no...hiring me (or anyone else in my situation) would apparently pose such an existential threat to companies so in need of people with my exact talent stack that I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago. I know this subject has been discussed ad nauseum here on HN, so I don't expect any new answers to my questions, but maybe a few of you with open ears and the ability to think outside the box when it comes to hiring could be a bit more understanding if a qualified candidate with past legal issues come thru your interview process.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago Is there any legislative push to seal records of non-violent offenders after N years of non-recividism? Seven years for most crimes, and fourteen for fraud and corruption would seem fair.
- BikiniPrince 6y ago
  You can in some circumstances depending on the crime and age of offense. What can you convince a judge to do is all I know. My home town had a deputy that wanted to be a sheriff or had won the position. However, they had a minor record. Parents filed statutory rape charges because he was 18 and she was 17. They just didn’t like him and they were eventually married later. Still, he carried they charge for 20 years. The sealing or removal was made public notice and of course everyone talks. In the grand scheme of things it was his wife and the age difference issue was amended in law. Because people recognize kids don’t magically not socialize on 18.
BikiniPrince 6y ago
I’m getting out of tech by 55. Maybe I won’t go insane in a smaller shop, but watching everyone without experience commit the same atrocities over and over is like hell. After a remodel I learned how lucrative cabinet makers have it. I started building my wood working shop a while ago and at some I’ll transition to that. I’ve got some growing and I have a lucrative position, but this battery is about depleted.
- derekp7 6y ago
  One thing about woodworking is that parts of it are easier for someone who has had a career in thinking logically and several steps ahead. If you also have had experience laying out user interfaces, that can help too. However there is the flip side, in that a number of techniques in woodworking aren't easily discoverable unless you've been working in the field for a while, and it is all too easy to get hurt (even when not using power equipment). I personally love doing projects, but on every single one I end up getting some sort of injury (typically something small like a splinter under the fingernail, or a tool slipping causing an abrasion on my hand, but annoying none the less). But you are right, in that there can be a good bit of coin to be had with furniture building, especially if you can draw on some standardized design principles to output good customized pieces. Think things like a closet organizer that is "perfect" for a customer's bedroom. Or things like cranking out desks needed by students doing school from home. In fact, I probably could have made a killing in selling "pandemic" desks (there were absolutely no desks to be found at the beginning of the school year). I made a couple for family members, made out of real hard wood (no partical board) for about $130 in lumber and connecting hardware -- nice 3-drawer desk units. I basically used rail-and-stile frames to make the back, sides, and drawer box using pocket screws, then 1/4 inch plywood tacked from the inside of the drawer box. Took about 3 hours to cut, drill, and assemble everything but the drawers themselves. If I was out of work I probably would have made a bunch and sold them for $350 a piece.
- mirkules 6y ago
  Thank you for mentioning the insanity of perpetually and badly reinventing the wheel. I’m in my 40s now, and I realized last year I’m utterly burned out. The passion for programming is just gone. I get home from work now and the last thing I want to do is look at code again. My garage is filled with Arduino projects I can’t bring myself to finish or throw out. Unlike you, I haven’t found another career path, but I did find solace in making music. At least it is much more permanent than software and something I can share with my kids. Art, in general, survives time, whereas it has become apparent that software does not.
KingMachiavelli 6y ago
Is getting records expunged not a option in your case or in many case? My understanding is that at least most non-violent offences could be expunged or sealed after N years of completing your sentence. I'm certainly not an expert so it would be interesting to know how that process can or can not apply.
- ivan888 6y ago
  This seems to be highly variable depending on the locality that holds the records. It does not seem to be standardized in my experience. Even after expungement where possible, there can be problems with records being inappropriately cached by background check services, and a background check after expungement may still show the conviction. Yes, this can be appealed, but still puts an undue burden on the applicant and may ultimately be a deciding factor between similar candidates even though it should not be used
- _underfl0w_ 6y ago
  To echo a sibling comment - an attorney once explained to me that, while it is illegal for background checking services to provide outdated/inaccurate data, there is no strict legal timeline requiring them to update their records. Meaning that, even post-expungement or post-sealing (and associated time + legal fees) there's still a non-insignificant chance that a potential employer might learn of your charge(s), even after taking legal action to clean up your record. Incidentally, I've also once been told by a Hiring Manager family member of mine that for minor charges it might be best *not* to seal them, since that would leave a potential employer guessing and likely assuming that it was something serious as opposed to something small or common, e.g. a marijuana-related misdemeanor. IANAL, obviously.
aaomidi 6y ago
The call to end prisons, police funding, and prison funding is partially to solve this exact problem. I don't think ANYONE should be able to request a federal background check. I don't think background checks should be allowed for employment or housing. Same as credit checks. A person is either safe enough to be in society, or not. There should NEVER be an in between state. And before you say anything: 1. Yes I am fine with previously convicted murderers living in the same building as me. Teaching my children. And being my co-worker. I want to be able to trust the "justice" system to allow people back into society when they're able to. 2. Yes I'm fine with sexual predators living in the same building as me. Teaching my children. And being my co-worker. For the same aforementioned reasons. 3. Yes. I'm fine with any person with any crime history that the courts and various other medical institutions have deemed that they can be a normal citizen to do what they want. For the group of people that "maybe they're safe but we're not sure but we don't want to keep them in prison". Then you need to give them a very good stipend and let them live in relative peace. Also, don't limit their housing. Housing limits should never be done. Think of this situation as a "disability payment", because it is a state induced disability. What someone did in the past shouldn't matter to anyone if that person has been rehabilitated.
- cabaalis 6y ago
  I think this black and white view is how the constitution was written, and in boolean logic would be how it is designed. But reality has many shades of grey. Would you trust your personal banking to an institution with history of leaking/mishandling/selling everything about you, or losing records of your balance? Would you trust your health information to a doctor with previous history of kickbacks, malpractice, lax HIPAA compliance?
  - NullPrefix 6y ago
    Was the institution reformed and executive board reprogrammed after it was caught?
    - ativzzz 6y ago
      No. They are most likely punished for their crime via a fine or a temporary license suspension with the only deterrent for future crimes being larger fines or longer suspensions.
jackthehammer 6y ago
Forget about "hiring", "secure jobs" and "paychecks": you sound like a contractor, not an employee. Either hire on with a consulting firm or open your own.
FpUser 6y ago
What you describe make my blood boil. I cant imaging what is the purpose of punishing people to the end of their days for old crimes however petty they were. Fucking prison planet.
macksd 6y ago
I would support treating ex-cons as a protected class where you can reject candidates for specific roles for specific reasons but can't just discriminate against anyone with any history. History of theft? Okay, let's not leave you alone with people's valuables. History of assault? Okay, let's not leave you alone with vulnerable people. But beyond that, if we're not willing to say that your sentence is finished when your sentence is finished, we're admitting a major flaw in our criminal justice system. And maybe that flaw is there, but then we should fix it. "Guilty for the rest of your life for ANY conviction" is just as bad as "guilty until proven innocent" in my opinion. I don't know what you were convicted of, but there aren't many things that would block me from trusting you to sit at a computer in an office and contribute to a software project as part of a team. Side note: are there really NO companies that let you in the door? I've had some larger corporate places ask me about any criminal history and have even run a background check. But I don't think it's come up at small and medium-size companies, where I'd also expect there's a bit more understanding and flexibility anyway. Maybe the ageism is more of an obstacle there? But then maybe I just don't notice because I don't have a conviction to tell them about. I certainly don't mean to minimize your problem, just wondering if it's really a complete deal breaker everywhere.
cgranier 6y ago
I have zero experience with this issue, but someone I met fundraising a few projects ago launched this, which is aimed at solving your particular issue: [70 Million Staffing](https://www.70millionstaffing.com/ https://www.70millionstaffing.com/) - focused on hiring people with criminal records and its counterpart: [Commissary Club](https://app.commissary.club/ https://app.commissary.club/) - a social network for ex-cons. Also, maybe now with the new emphasis on remote work, people with criminal records have a better chance at getting hired?

by cubano 6y ago

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago Is there any legislative push to seal records of non-violent offenders after N years of non-recividism? Seven years for most crimes, and fourteen for fraud and corruption would seem fair.

BikiniPrince 6y ago
You can in some circumstances depending on the crime and age of offense. What can you convince a judge to do is all I know. My home town had a deputy that wanted to be a sheriff or had won the position. However, they had a minor record. Parents filed statutory rape charges because he was 18 and she was 17. They just didn’t like him and they were eventually married later. Still, he carried they charge for 20 years. The sealing or removal was made public notice and of course everyone talks. In the grand scheme of things it was his wife and the age difference issue was amended in law. Because people recognize kids don’t magically not socialize on 18.

BikiniPrince 6y ago

I’m getting out of tech by 55. Maybe I won’t go insane in a smaller shop, but watching everyone without experience commit the same atrocities over and over is like hell. After a remodel I learned how lucrative cabinet makers have it. I started building my wood working shop a while ago and at some I’ll transition to that. I’ve got some growing and I have a lucrative position, but this battery is about depleted.

derekp7 6y ago
One thing about woodworking is that parts of it are easier for someone who has had a career in thinking logically and several steps ahead. If you also have had experience laying out user interfaces, that can help too. However there is the flip side, in that a number of techniques in woodworking aren't easily discoverable unless you've been working in the field for a while, and it is all too easy to get hurt (even when not using power equipment). I personally love doing projects, but on every single one I end up getting some sort of injury (typically something small like a splinter under the fingernail, or a tool slipping causing an abrasion on my hand, but annoying none the less). But you are right, in that there can be a good bit of coin to be had with furniture building, especially if you can draw on some standardized design principles to output good customized pieces. Think things like a closet organizer that is "perfect" for a customer's bedroom. Or things like cranking out desks needed by students doing school from home. In fact, I probably could have made a killing in selling "pandemic" desks (there were absolutely no desks to be found at the beginning of the school year). I made a couple for family members, made out of real hard wood (no partical board) for about $130 in lumber and connecting hardware -- nice 3-drawer desk units. I basically used rail-and-stile frames to make the back, sides, and drawer box using pocket screws, then 1/4 inch plywood tacked from the inside of the drawer box. Took about 3 hours to cut, drill, and assemble everything but the drawers themselves. If I was out of work I probably would have made a bunch and sold them for $350 a piece.
mirkules 6y ago
Thank you for mentioning the insanity of perpetually and badly reinventing the wheel. I’m in my 40s now, and I realized last year I’m utterly burned out. The passion for programming is just gone. I get home from work now and the last thing I want to do is look at code again. My garage is filled with Arduino projects I can’t bring myself to finish or throw out. Unlike you, I haven’t found another career path, but I did find solace in making music. At least it is much more permanent than software and something I can share with my kids. Art, in general, survives time, whereas it has become apparent that software does not.

KingMachiavelli 6y ago

Is getting records expunged not a option in your case or in many case? My understanding is that at least most non-violent offences could be expunged or sealed after N years of completing your sentence. I'm certainly not an expert so it would be interesting to know how that process can or can not apply.

ivan888 6y ago
This seems to be highly variable depending on the locality that holds the records. It does not seem to be standardized in my experience. Even after expungement where possible, there can be problems with records being inappropriately cached by background check services, and a background check after expungement may still show the conviction. Yes, this can be appealed, but still puts an undue burden on the applicant and may ultimately be a deciding factor between similar candidates even though it should not be used
_underfl0w_ 6y ago
To echo a sibling comment - an attorney once explained to me that, while it is illegal for background checking services to provide outdated/inaccurate data, there is no strict legal timeline requiring them to update their records. Meaning that, even post-expungement or post-sealing (and associated time + legal fees) there's still a non-insignificant chance that a potential employer might learn of your charge(s), even after taking legal action to clean up your record. Incidentally, I've also once been told by a Hiring Manager family member of mine that for minor charges it might be best *not* to seal them, since that would leave a potential employer guessing and likely assuming that it was something serious as opposed to something small or common, e.g. a marijuana-related misdemeanor. IANAL, obviously.

aaomidi 6y ago

The call to end prisons, police funding, and prison funding is partially to solve this exact problem. I don't think ANYONE should be able to request a federal background check. I don't think background checks should be allowed for employment or housing. Same as credit checks. A person is either safe enough to be in society, or not. There should NEVER be an in between state. And before you say anything: 1. Yes I am fine with previously convicted murderers living in the same building as me. Teaching my children. And being my co-worker. I want to be able to trust the "justice" system to allow people back into society when they're able to. 2. Yes I'm fine with sexual predators living in the same building as me. Teaching my children. And being my co-worker. For the same aforementioned reasons. 3. Yes. I'm fine with any person with any crime history that the courts and various other medical institutions have deemed that they can be a normal citizen to do what they want. For the group of people that "maybe they're safe but we're not sure but we don't want to keep them in prison". Then you need to give them a very good stipend and let them live in relative peace. Also, don't limit their housing. Housing limits should never be done. Think of this situation as a "disability payment", because it is a state induced disability. What someone did in the past shouldn't matter to anyone if that person has been rehabilitated.

cabaalis 6y ago
I think this black and white view is how the constitution was written, and in boolean logic would be how it is designed. But reality has many shades of grey. Would you trust your personal banking to an institution with history of leaking/mishandling/selling everything about you, or losing records of your balance? Would you trust your health information to a doctor with previous history of kickbacks, malpractice, lax HIPAA compliance?
- NullPrefix 6y ago
  Was the institution reformed and executive board reprogrammed after it was caught?
  - ativzzz 6y ago
    No. They are most likely punished for their crime via a fine or a temporary license suspension with the only deterrent for future crimes being larger fines or longer suspensions.

jackthehammer 6y ago

Forget about "hiring", "secure jobs" and "paychecks": you sound like a contractor, not an employee. Either hire on with a consulting firm or open your own.

FpUser 6y ago

What you describe make my blood boil. I cant imaging what is the purpose of punishing people to the end of their days for old crimes however petty they were. Fucking prison planet.

macksd 6y ago

I would support treating ex-cons as a protected class where you can reject candidates for specific roles for specific reasons but can't just discriminate against anyone with any history. History of theft? Okay, let's not leave you alone with people's valuables. History of assault? Okay, let's not leave you alone with vulnerable people. But beyond that, if we're not willing to say that your sentence is finished when your sentence is finished, we're admitting a major flaw in our criminal justice system. And maybe that flaw is there, but then we should fix it. "Guilty for the rest of your life for ANY conviction" is just as bad as "guilty until proven innocent" in my opinion. I don't know what you were convicted of, but there aren't many things that would block me from trusting you to sit at a computer in an office and contribute to a software project as part of a team. Side note: are there really NO companies that let you in the door? I've had some larger corporate places ask me about any criminal history and have even run a background check. But I don't think it's come up at small and medium-size companies, where I'd also expect there's a bit more understanding and flexibility anyway. Maybe the ageism is more of an obstacle there? But then maybe I just don't notice because I don't have a conviction to tell them about. I certainly don't mean to minimize your problem, just wondering if it's really a complete deal breaker everywhere.

cgranier 6y ago

I have zero experience with this issue, but someone I met fundraising a few projects ago launched this, which is aimed at solving your particular issue: [70 Million Staffing](https://www.70millionstaffing.com/ https://www.70millionstaffing.com/) - focused on hiring people with criminal records and its counterpart: [Commissary Club](https://app.commissary.club/ https://app.commissary.club/) - a social network for ex-cons. Also, maybe now with the new emphasis on remote work, people with criminal records have a better chance at getting hired?