4 ms·

Exactly. Any form of science cannot tell us what should or should not be done. Science informs our choices. It doesn't make them.

snet0 6y ago
While I agree with the fundamental, the is-ought divide, I think this paper is basically saying "based on a load of measurements that are obviously goals of our society, criminalisation of drug offences is acting against our own interests".
- khawkins 6y ago
  This is only a utilitarian ethical argument. If people approach from a deontological perspective, the measurements may not matter. Suggesting a policy prescription in the title of a scientific study puts the legitimacy of the study in complete question. The researchers must approach the question as one which can be falsifiable, else it's not science.
  - mcphage 6y ago
    > Suggesting a policy prescription in the title of a scientific study puts the legitimacy of the study in complete question. Does it? > The researchers must approach the question as one which can be falsifiable, else it's not science. Isn't that what this study was—they had a hypothesis which they wished to test: "We should do X." Then they did whatever they reported in their paper, and found that their hypothesis was supported by the evidence.
    - khawkins 6y ago
      A policy prescription requires weighing of values, which a scientist should avoid at all costs. It's quite literally the point of science, to understand how the world works without injecting your personal biases about how the world should work.
      - mcphage 6y ago
        The point of science is, ideas are tested by experiment. If you don't start your experiment with a hypothesis about the way the world works, then you're just p-hacking.
- gowld 6y ago
  That's fine, but it should say that (and probably does; the journalism is probably the one changing the story).
- quotemstr 6y ago
  If the authors were striving for objectivity, they'd skip discussion of values and interests entirely and talk solely about what effect drug policies had on certain quantifiable metrics --- all in a factual and dispassionate way. A scientific paper is a report on the state of reality and should not contain a case for any sort of action.
Der_Einzige 6y ago
How the heck is this comment downvoted? The is-ought gap is unpopular here? HNs username must be Sam Harrises biggest fans...
- quotemstr 6y ago
  It's not that the is-ought gap is unpopular: it's that the gap doesn't even make it into the debate. We're dealing with an epistemic regime in which it's acceptable to engineer desired "ought" outcomes by controlling who gets to make statements about what "is". That is, is no "is" independent from power dynamics, oppressor and oppressed. "Is", in this model, is just another form of narrative that serves the powerful. In this world, you should expect downvotes for arguing that science informs us about objective reality, because people of a certain mindset see scientific results that contradict their worldview as just another form of oppressive discourse intended to subjugate the powerless. To them, science is just one of many equal and arbitrary forms of rhetoric and power gaming.

snet0 6y ago

While I agree with the fundamental, the is-ought divide, I think this paper is basically saying "based on a load of measurements that are obviously goals of our society, criminalisation of drug offences is acting against our own interests".

khawkins 6y ago
This is only a utilitarian ethical argument. If people approach from a deontological perspective, the measurements may not matter. Suggesting a policy prescription in the title of a scientific study puts the legitimacy of the study in complete question. The researchers must approach the question as one which can be falsifiable, else it's not science.
- mcphage 6y ago
  > Suggesting a policy prescription in the title of a scientific study puts the legitimacy of the study in complete question. Does it? > The researchers must approach the question as one which can be falsifiable, else it's not science. Isn't that what this study was—they had a hypothesis which they wished to test: "We should do X." Then they did whatever they reported in their paper, and found that their hypothesis was supported by the evidence.
  - khawkins 6y ago
    A policy prescription requires weighing of values, which a scientist should avoid at all costs. It's quite literally the point of science, to understand how the world works without injecting your personal biases about how the world should work.
    - mcphage 6y ago
      The point of science is, ideas are tested by experiment. If you don't start your experiment with a hypothesis about the way the world works, then you're just p-hacking.
gowld 6y ago
That's fine, but it should say that (and probably does; the journalism is probably the one changing the story).
quotemstr 6y ago
If the authors were striving for objectivity, they'd skip discussion of values and interests entirely and talk solely about what effect drug policies had on certain quantifiable metrics --- all in a factual and dispassionate way. A scientific paper is a report on the state of reality and should not contain a case for any sort of action.

Der_Einzige 6y ago

How the heck is this comment downvoted? The is-ought gap is unpopular here? HNs username must be Sam Harrises biggest fans...

quotemstr 6y ago
It's not that the is-ought gap is unpopular: it's that the gap doesn't even make it into the debate. We're dealing with an epistemic regime in which it's acceptable to engineer desired "ought" outcomes by controlling who gets to make statements about what "is". That is, is no "is" independent from power dynamics, oppressor and oppressed. "Is", in this model, is just another form of narrative that serves the powerful. In this world, you should expect downvotes for arguing that science informs us about objective reality, because people of a certain mindset see scientific results that contradict their worldview as just another form of oppressive discourse intended to subjugate the powerless. To them, science is just one of many equal and arbitrary forms of rhetoric and power gaming.