3 ms·

Does, "This won't make us any money, and could further result in the company going under or otherwise severely being hindered in the market due to the negative

Does, "This won't make us any money, and could further result in the company going under or otherwise severely being hindered in the market due to the negative backlash and resulting decline in business." count as a subjective standard that you believe a private institution should not be applying? What are corporations allowed to do then, in your mind?

sneak 6y ago
Allow me to dodge answering directly: If gigantic multinationals and infrastructure providers stop hosting anything that might be unpopular or generate bad PR, then we quickly approach a world where the tyranny of sheep logic[1] (not what people think, but what people think other people think) will dictate the very narrow range of what products, services, media, literature, and art are available. That world sucks and we should avoid it. This has already mostly happened for concert venues in the US, as well as video hosting. Already we've made a world where the basic human unclothed form is all but outlawed except in clinical (or apparently yoga) settings online. I don't think there's any upper bound to what a culture can contort into believing is unacceptable. [1]: https://www.epsilontheory.com/sheep-logic/ https://www.epsilontheory.com/sheep-logic/
- TameAntelope 6y ago
  This implies there's better logic than sheep logic, and that some subset of humanity is privy to it, which feels like the source of the problem in the first place; people thinking that they're better than other people and reacting to that feeling. Wouldn't another definition of "sheep logic" just be "society", and don't we kind of all agree that society (though not without drawbacks) is vastly superior to no society? This argument feels like frustration with the price we pay for allowing others to exist alongside us.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Perhaps we should stick to what we in society generally agree on: the rule of law and equal application of it. Having non-mainstream beliefs or opinions isn't illegal, and I don't think people should be losing their accounts and data for things that aren't illegal. We already take that approach for public utilities; your water can't be shut off because of your political affiliation or membership in some unprotected class like BDSM practitioners. Perhaps web and infrastructure hosting (app stores and communications systems (ie social media) included) should be approached in a similar fashion.
    - high_density 6y ago
      this. Current outright banning and gagging will surely backfire. The pro-trumps will raise the question: "what are the other-side so afraid of, that they are trying to shut us off?" So instead of calming them down, it'll actually have the opposite effect - the feeling that the other side is much more evil than imaginable. And the questions for bystanders will be "If the powers-that-be can snuff that side, what guarantees that I/we won't be snuffed?" If you see the foundations of democracy, 'Freedom-of-speech' is actually a device to ensure no political party can have dictatorial powers over what the public can know. Moreover, democratic societies are actually more resilient due to these 'room-to-wiggle' - the other option will be much more violent 'revolution' experienced by dictator-states at their end. Anyway, the other side is producing gibberish, then so be it. Just refute them properly inside a shared platform.
    - TameAntelope 6y ago
      The point you're trying to make isn't actually one anyone (rational) is trying to disagree with. Obviously (IMO) differing viewpoints should be allowed to coexist. The problem is that you're not really addressing the actual issue, which is whether or not I can enter into agreements or not contingent on my own actions. If I can, then it's fair for the other party of that agreement to exercise that part of the agreement and end our relationship. If I can't, then I'm not allowed agency over my own actions, nor is the other party... Are you suggesting that groups shouldn't create terms of use that are contingent on how a service is used?
      - sneak 6y ago
        Terms of use are not legally binding, they are simply a courtesy. A service can today kick you off without your having ever violated the terms of use they publish. To answer your question, our society presently restricts several types of businesses from either offering or not offering service to certain groups in various circumstances. This wouldn't really be any more of a stretch than preventing the electric company from denying you service.
        TameAntelope 6y ago

sneak 6y ago

Allow me to dodge answering directly: If gigantic multinationals and infrastructure providers stop hosting anything that might be unpopular or generate bad PR, then we quickly approach a world where the tyranny of sheep logic[1] (not what people think, but what people think other people think) will dictate the very narrow range of what products, services, media, literature, and art are available. That world sucks and we should avoid it. This has already mostly happened for concert venues in the US, as well as video hosting. Already we've made a world where the basic human unclothed form is all but outlawed except in clinical (or apparently yoga) settings online. I don't think there's any upper bound to what a culture can contort into believing is unacceptable. [1]: https://www.epsilontheory.com/sheep-logic/ https://www.epsilontheory.com/sheep-logic/

TameAntelope 6y ago
This implies there's better logic than sheep logic, and that some subset of humanity is privy to it, which feels like the source of the problem in the first place; people thinking that they're better than other people and reacting to that feeling. Wouldn't another definition of "sheep logic" just be "society", and don't we kind of all agree that society (though not without drawbacks) is vastly superior to no society? This argument feels like frustration with the price we pay for allowing others to exist alongside us.
- sneak 6y ago
  Perhaps we should stick to what we in society generally agree on: the rule of law and equal application of it. Having non-mainstream beliefs or opinions isn't illegal, and I don't think people should be losing their accounts and data for things that aren't illegal. We already take that approach for public utilities; your water can't be shut off because of your political affiliation or membership in some unprotected class like BDSM practitioners. Perhaps web and infrastructure hosting (app stores and communications systems (ie social media) included) should be approached in a similar fashion.
  - high_density 6y ago
    this. Current outright banning and gagging will surely backfire. The pro-trumps will raise the question: "what are the other-side so afraid of, that they are trying to shut us off?" So instead of calming them down, it'll actually have the opposite effect - the feeling that the other side is much more evil than imaginable. And the questions for bystanders will be "If the powers-that-be can snuff that side, what guarantees that I/we won't be snuffed?" If you see the foundations of democracy, 'Freedom-of-speech' is actually a device to ensure no political party can have dictatorial powers over what the public can know. Moreover, democratic societies are actually more resilient due to these 'room-to-wiggle' - the other option will be much more violent 'revolution' experienced by dictator-states at their end. Anyway, the other side is producing gibberish, then so be it. Just refute them properly inside a shared platform.
  - TameAntelope 6y ago
    The point you're trying to make isn't actually one anyone (rational) is trying to disagree with. Obviously (IMO) differing viewpoints should be allowed to coexist. The problem is that you're not really addressing the actual issue, which is whether or not I can enter into agreements or not contingent on my own actions. If I can, then it's fair for the other party of that agreement to exercise that part of the agreement and end our relationship. If I can't, then I'm not allowed agency over my own actions, nor is the other party... Are you suggesting that groups shouldn't create terms of use that are contingent on how a service is used?
    - sneak 6y ago
      Terms of use are not legally binding, they are simply a courtesy. A service can today kick you off without your having ever violated the terms of use they publish. To answer your question, our society presently restricts several types of businesses from either offering or not offering service to certain groups in various circumstances. This wouldn't really be any more of a stretch than preventing the electric company from denying you service.
      - TameAntelope 6y ago