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You're talking about authoritarians on both sides. There are still libertarians on both sides (and even independent) who care more about civil liberties like fr

by swebs 6y ago

You're talking about authoritarians on both sides. There are still libertarians on both sides (and even independent) who care more about civil liberties like freedom of speech (the ideal, not just the first amendment).

arminiusreturns 6y ago
This! It frustrates me so much that so many people constantly just talk about left and right while completely ignoring the Y-axis of the political spectrum! To me, both parties are firmly in authoritarian land, and no amount of calling it "both sides-ism" will change that fact. Another frustrating thing is seeing people take a position and just label everything one or the other side, while there are a huge swath of voters and non-voters who don't identify with either party. (sidenote: Right now, I am liking the Movement for a Peoples Party.)
- cedilla 6y ago
  It frustrates me that people mistake the political compass meme for a thing that actually exists. It's more complex than "left" vs. "right" and authoritarian vs. libertarian. Compressing politics down to literally two dimensions is a disservice to any political discussion.
  - arminiusreturns 6y ago
    What better way is there to condense the political "spectrum" into an easily digestable product? Of course it's not perfect by any stretch, but the multi-axis charts are much more useful than the line-chart of left right most people tend to talk about. It's certainly much more than just a "meme" that doesn't exist. From The Decision Lab: "A single-axis model conflates liberal and conservative ideologies with right-wing and left-wing stances, excluding the nuances that can exist in someone’s political ideals. Single-axis models like the right/left-wing divide have been criticized for being too simple and reductionist, and it has been suggested that the right/left divide only captures economic issues but that it need not be reflective of one’s social political identity.2 Instead of having to have left-wing mean liberal and right-wing mean conservative, the political compass proposes that we are better off measuring political ideologies on two separate axes: a right/left economic axis and an authoritarian/libertarian axis.3 With such a model, it would be possible for someone to be right-wing and libertarian, or left-wing and authoritarian; none of the views are made mutually exclusive with another. The political compass proposes this alternative model because research has suggested that one’s economic views do not always align with their overall political identity, and therefore, the model would allow people to more accurately understand where they stand in relation to other views, which could mean a less polarized political landscape." [1] https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guides/test/political-compass/ https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guides/test/political-c...
  - swebs 6y ago
    At least we can agree that a two dimensional spectrum is infinitely better than a one dimensional spectrum. Especially when terms such as "left" and "right" are incredibly vaguely defined and differ greatly based on who you're talking to.
- incangold 6y ago
  Doing principle component analysis on political views to try to determine the number of axes required to account for variability in political views is an interesting endeavour. e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/PRINCIPAL-COMPONENT-ANALYSIS-OF-POLITICAL-ISSUES_tbl2_231844735/amp https://www.researchgate.net/figure/PRINCIPAL-COMPONENT-ANAL... https://escholarship.org/content/qt1c192923/qt1c192923.pdf?t=oka589&v=lg https://escholarship.org/content/qt1c192923/qt1c192923.pdf?t...
andromeduck 6y ago
It's true but feels like a loosing battle for principled moderates/libertarians these days. Everyone loves to critique and tear down what we have for real or perceived injustices but few are willing to the context and compromises that led to them or propose realizable, incremental solutions.

by swebs 6y ago

arminiusreturns 6y ago

This! It frustrates me so much that so many people constantly just talk about left and right while completely ignoring the Y-axis of the political spectrum! To me, both parties are firmly in authoritarian land, and no amount of calling it "both sides-ism" will change that fact. Another frustrating thing is seeing people take a position and just label everything one or the other side, while there are a huge swath of voters and non-voters who don't identify with either party. (sidenote: Right now, I am liking the Movement for a Peoples Party.)

cedilla 6y ago
It frustrates me that people mistake the political compass meme for a thing that actually exists. It's more complex than "left" vs. "right" and authoritarian vs. libertarian. Compressing politics down to literally two dimensions is a disservice to any political discussion.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  What better way is there to condense the political "spectrum" into an easily digestable product? Of course it's not perfect by any stretch, but the multi-axis charts are much more useful than the line-chart of left right most people tend to talk about. It's certainly much more than just a "meme" that doesn't exist. From The Decision Lab: "A single-axis model conflates liberal and conservative ideologies with right-wing and left-wing stances, excluding the nuances that can exist in someone’s political ideals. Single-axis models like the right/left-wing divide have been criticized for being too simple and reductionist, and it has been suggested that the right/left divide only captures economic issues but that it need not be reflective of one’s social political identity.2 Instead of having to have left-wing mean liberal and right-wing mean conservative, the political compass proposes that we are better off measuring political ideologies on two separate axes: a right/left economic axis and an authoritarian/libertarian axis.3 With such a model, it would be possible for someone to be right-wing and libertarian, or left-wing and authoritarian; none of the views are made mutually exclusive with another. The political compass proposes this alternative model because research has suggested that one’s economic views do not always align with their overall political identity, and therefore, the model would allow people to more accurately understand where they stand in relation to other views, which could mean a less polarized political landscape." [1] https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guides/test/political-compass/ https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guides/test/political-c...
- swebs 6y ago
  At least we can agree that a two dimensional spectrum is infinitely better than a one dimensional spectrum. Especially when terms such as "left" and "right" are incredibly vaguely defined and differ greatly based on who you're talking to.
incangold 6y ago
Doing principle component analysis on political views to try to determine the number of axes required to account for variability in political views is an interesting endeavour. e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/PRINCIPAL-COMPONENT-ANALYSIS-OF-POLITICAL-ISSUES_tbl2_231844735/amp https://www.researchgate.net/figure/PRINCIPAL-COMPONENT-ANAL... https://escholarship.org/content/qt1c192923/qt1c192923.pdf?t=oka589&v=lg https://escholarship.org/content/qt1c192923/qt1c192923.pdf?t...

andromeduck 6y ago

It's true but feels like a loosing battle for principled moderates/libertarians these days. Everyone loves to critique and tear down what we have for real or perceived injustices but few are willing to the context and compromises that led to them or propose realizable, incremental solutions.