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Interesting article, but the extreme lack of electricity seems unnecessary, at least today. Solar panels have gotten much cheaper, enough so that generating ad

Interesting article, but the extreme lack of electricity seems unnecessary, at least today. Solar panels have gotten much cheaper, enough so that generating adequate power to run a couple of laptops even on cloudy days is fairly affordable. Batteries to keep it going at night have also come down in price. Maybe the extreme power savings are more of an aesthetic thing for them.

znpy 6y ago
Congrats on reading the article and not getting the context. They live on a boat, by the sea, often in the middle of the ocean. Even with solar panel, extreme power saving is a necessity.
walrus01 6y ago
On a medium sized sailboat the limiting factor for how much PV capacity you can have is the physical mounting space. Google "bimini top solar panel": https://www.google.com/search?q=bimini+top+solar+panel&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk01kEXWJi__Qg6Apt9osy4zXsZf8wA:1610364053628&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjchYDL4ZPuAhU4JzQIHZ2pDjoQ_AUoAnoECAgQBA&biw=1680&bih=953 https://www.google.com/search?q=bimini+top+solar+panel&clien... What could be trivially easy to mount on a small off grid cabin in the woods somewhere, like two of these: https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-panels/panasonic-hit-high-efficiency-solar-panels-p40891/ https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-panels/panasonic-hit-h... could be very difficult and too much surface area and wind loading on a sailboat that people can realistically afford to buy. If you have the space and can fit one, something like the Sunpower 400W rated panels which are composed of expensive, ultra high efficiency monocrystalline Si cells would be ideal. You're looking for the greatest ratio of watts per square meter in STC test conditions. What I would recommend is first calculating the watt-hours per day consumed by your projected load, versus what the PV system could be expected to produce.
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  Another factor in sail boats is the shading caused by masts, stowed sails, hand rails and lines. It's one of the few places where micro-scale wind turbines almost work.
  - jarvist 6y ago
    Sort of... but the wind turbines often don't point well when you're at sea, and you intentionally anchor in calm places to avoid the swell. Sailing specific PV would often have 40 silicon cells rather than 36 in series, to provide some headroom for partial shading. Watt & sea hydro-generators have become quite ubiquitous recently, as if you're making passage your entire vessel is a machine for concentrating wind energy: https://www.wattandsea.com/index.php/en/products/cruising-hydrogenerators https://www.wattandsea.com/index.php/en/products/cruising-hy...
    - hinkley 6y ago
      Also you may be more likely to stay put on a calm day, increasing demand for power.
- jcims 6y ago
  I'm clueless in this area. Would a raft be viable? Presumably it would add some drag if you're underway but a small inflatable pontoon raft seems like it could run 4-6 panels and be reasonably portable when not in use.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    I do off grid PV professionally but don't know a lot about boats. But having been on a few 42-48 ft size cruiser type sailboats, I can't think of a place you could easily pack away six 1.65x1.0 meter size (typical 60-cell) rigid, aluminum framed high efficiency PV panels, unless you basically dedicated the smaller guest bunk to storage space.
    - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
      Hey. You said you do off grid. I have a question. I own a 5 kW on grid setup for net metering. Works fine but now I want to use backups. I have two options, either lithium 100ah 48v which is expensive or 12v 200ah x 4 to make 48v. Cheaper but limited life because the home load would be on it entirely. I dont know. The calculation of kWh checks out to be 100ah x 48v = 4800wh. And for lead acid 200ah x 12v x 2= 4800wh. What do you suggest or is there something I am thinking incorrectly... space is not an issue BTW.
      - walrus01 6y ago
        google "DIY powerwall" if you're up for a bit of a technical challenge. 4 x 12V 200Ah isn't big enough for most houses, unless it's like a cabin in the woods somewhere. and you're right that the cycle life of those and cost is high. but commercial li-ion based solutions are also expensive. However, if you can keep them at 80-85% state of charge, and rarely if ever discharge them below 30%, they should have lifespans 5-6x longer than the lead acid solution. in either solution you can't really consider the full volts * Ah capacity of the battery to be usable. If you were to ever use all of the watt-hours in a 12V 200Ah battery you'd kill it, you never want to go below 20% state of charge... so to be conservative the actual capacity of a single battery is something like: 12 * 200 = 2400 Wh, then (2400 * 0.70) = 1680Wh.
- guerby 6y ago
  Why not floating solar panels attached to the boat? (Just a random idea, I know absolutely nothing about boats :)
  - ralphhughes 6y ago
    When you're docked in a marina or similar its unlikely there would be space. When you're sailing or motoring somewhere you want the minimum drag\resistance through the water, and more importantly, the waves would smash them to pieces in no time. To make them weatherproof would mean making them less like a floating solar panel and more like a small boat.
  - rektide 6y ago
    One of my favorite science-fictions was imagining the Sea Slice, repurposed as a deployable floating mini-solar power plant. To actually be able to get anywhere, you'd need a gobsmackingly large amount of power storage, or you just take it day by day, charge for a couple hours, go, charge for a couple hours, go. Sure wish I had a million dollars sitting around when the ship went on sale for $280k. And a couple more friends with free time & well-equipped workshops. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29428/the-experimental-littoral-combat-ship-sea-slice-has-met-its-sad-demise-in-denmark https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29428/the-experimental...
CaptArmchair 6y ago
> Solar panels have gotten much cheaper, enough so that generating adequate power to run a couple of laptops even on cloudy days is fairly affordable. Batteries to keep it going at night have also come down in price. From the article: > Our work schedule is tied to the weather, as we depend on solar energy to power our computers. So, what's the problem then? Well, they've written in-depth about the challenges and constraints of solar elsewhere on the site. [1] Their vessel is on the smaller side of the spectrum. There's only so much usable space to place a solar array. [2] They do use batteries and they have a small gas generator, but those are also limited and only used as a backup. [1] https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html#power https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html#power [2] https://100r.co/site/pino.html https://100r.co/site/pino.html
pontifier 6y ago
I'm trying to run a company in a hostile regulatory environment. I've been without power since April 2020. This is in the middle of a city in the United States. I've tried generators and have gone through 3 so far. Fuel was very expensive, and the time and effort to keep them running 24/7 was miserable. I have now tried going solar but have had all sorts of problems with battery life and cloudy weather. It's not as easy as I thought it would be.
- pjc50 6y ago
  > I'm trying to run a company in a hostile regulatory environment. I've been without power since April 2020. This is in the middle of a city in the United States. .. how? Which city?
  - pontifier 6y ago
    Pine Bluff, Arkansas.
  - quesera 6y ago
    There might be a relevant distinction between "without power" and "power is not available to me".
    - pontifier 6y ago
      The city won't approve the electrical hookup to the building I purchased. I've had 2 different commercial contractors try to pull permits and both of them were denied. Not denied in writing, but convinced not to file the required application. I was actually assaulted by a zoning officer while sitting in their office trying to fill out an application they didn't want me to submit.
      - quesera 6y ago
        That sounds miserable. Fighting (an office of) City Hall is a painful experience. You must have some idea of why they are obstructing though, right? An electrical permit is an indirect block, so I'm guessing you've fought other battles with the office in the past? In any case, you have a right to file the permit. The office might make your life hell through documented denials or overzealous inspections, but getting the permit filed should be non-controversial. Once filed, they must approve or deny. If denied, there is a formal appeals process which can run through different people/departments. If you have the time and energy for it, of course. Anyway, I know you are not here soliciting advice, but my next step would be to bring a lawyer to the filing office to ensure that the application is filed, and that no further assault occurs. Good luck.
Steltek 6y ago
More than that, they're on a sailboat! Electric motors offer regen when under sailpower, which is absolutely huge, or you can get a towable torpedo generator. Otherwise, get a small wind turbine. You can subsist on PV alone but there are far better options, especially when available PV area is so limited.

znpy 6y ago

Congrats on reading the article and not getting the context. They live on a boat, by the sea, often in the middle of the ocean. Even with solar panel, extreme power saving is a necessity.

walrus01 6y ago

On a medium sized sailboat the limiting factor for how much PV capacity you can have is the physical mounting space. Google "bimini top solar panel": https://www.google.com/search?q=bimini+top+solar+panel&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk01kEXWJi__Qg6Apt9osy4zXsZf8wA:1610364053628&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjchYDL4ZPuAhU4JzQIHZ2pDjoQ_AUoAnoECAgQBA&biw=1680&bih=953 https://www.google.com/search?q=bimini+top+solar+panel&clien... What could be trivially easy to mount on a small off grid cabin in the woods somewhere, like two of these: https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-panels/panasonic-hit-high-efficiency-solar-panels-p40891/ https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-panels/panasonic-hit-h... could be very difficult and too much surface area and wind loading on a sailboat that people can realistically afford to buy. If you have the space and can fit one, something like the Sunpower 400W rated panels which are composed of expensive, ultra high efficiency monocrystalline Si cells would be ideal. You're looking for the greatest ratio of watts per square meter in STC test conditions. What I would recommend is first calculating the watt-hours per day consumed by your projected load, versus what the PV system could be expected to produce.

VBprogrammer 6y ago
Another factor in sail boats is the shading caused by masts, stowed sails, hand rails and lines. It's one of the few places where micro-scale wind turbines almost work.
- jarvist 6y ago
  Sort of... but the wind turbines often don't point well when you're at sea, and you intentionally anchor in calm places to avoid the swell. Sailing specific PV would often have 40 silicon cells rather than 36 in series, to provide some headroom for partial shading. Watt & sea hydro-generators have become quite ubiquitous recently, as if you're making passage your entire vessel is a machine for concentrating wind energy: https://www.wattandsea.com/index.php/en/products/cruising-hydrogenerators https://www.wattandsea.com/index.php/en/products/cruising-hy...
  - hinkley 6y ago
    Also you may be more likely to stay put on a calm day, increasing demand for power.
jcims 6y ago
I'm clueless in this area. Would a raft be viable? Presumably it would add some drag if you're underway but a small inflatable pontoon raft seems like it could run 4-6 panels and be reasonably portable when not in use.
- walrus01 6y ago
  I do off grid PV professionally but don't know a lot about boats. But having been on a few 42-48 ft size cruiser type sailboats, I can't think of a place you could easily pack away six 1.65x1.0 meter size (typical 60-cell) rigid, aluminum framed high efficiency PV panels, unless you basically dedicated the smaller guest bunk to storage space.
  - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
    Hey. You said you do off grid. I have a question. I own a 5 kW on grid setup for net metering. Works fine but now I want to use backups. I have two options, either lithium 100ah 48v which is expensive or 12v 200ah x 4 to make 48v. Cheaper but limited life because the home load would be on it entirely. I dont know. The calculation of kWh checks out to be 100ah x 48v = 4800wh. And for lead acid 200ah x 12v x 2= 4800wh. What do you suggest or is there something I am thinking incorrectly... space is not an issue BTW.
    - walrus01 6y ago
      google "DIY powerwall" if you're up for a bit of a technical challenge. 4 x 12V 200Ah isn't big enough for most houses, unless it's like a cabin in the woods somewhere. and you're right that the cycle life of those and cost is high. but commercial li-ion based solutions are also expensive. However, if you can keep them at 80-85% state of charge, and rarely if ever discharge them below 30%, they should have lifespans 5-6x longer than the lead acid solution. in either solution you can't really consider the full volts * Ah capacity of the battery to be usable. If you were to ever use all of the watt-hours in a 12V 200Ah battery you'd kill it, you never want to go below 20% state of charge... so to be conservative the actual capacity of a single battery is something like: 12 * 200 = 2400 Wh, then (2400 * 0.70) = 1680Wh.
guerby 6y ago
Why not floating solar panels attached to the boat? (Just a random idea, I know absolutely nothing about boats :)
- ralphhughes 6y ago
  When you're docked in a marina or similar its unlikely there would be space. When you're sailing or motoring somewhere you want the minimum drag\resistance through the water, and more importantly, the waves would smash them to pieces in no time. To make them weatherproof would mean making them less like a floating solar panel and more like a small boat.
- rektide 6y ago
  One of my favorite science-fictions was imagining the Sea Slice, repurposed as a deployable floating mini-solar power plant. To actually be able to get anywhere, you'd need a gobsmackingly large amount of power storage, or you just take it day by day, charge for a couple hours, go, charge for a couple hours, go. Sure wish I had a million dollars sitting around when the ship went on sale for $280k. And a couple more friends with free time & well-equipped workshops. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29428/the-experimental-littoral-combat-ship-sea-slice-has-met-its-sad-demise-in-denmark https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29428/the-experimental...

CaptArmchair 6y ago

> Solar panels have gotten much cheaper, enough so that generating adequate power to run a couple of laptops even on cloudy days is fairly affordable. Batteries to keep it going at night have also come down in price. From the article: > Our work schedule is tied to the weather, as we depend on solar energy to power our computers. So, what's the problem then? Well, they've written in-depth about the challenges and constraints of solar elsewhere on the site. [1] Their vessel is on the smaller side of the spectrum. There's only so much usable space to place a solar array. [2] They do use batteries and they have a small gas generator, but those are also limited and only used as a backup. [1] https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html#power https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html#power [2] https://100r.co/site/pino.html https://100r.co/site/pino.html

pontifier 6y ago

I'm trying to run a company in a hostile regulatory environment. I've been without power since April 2020. This is in the middle of a city in the United States. I've tried generators and have gone through 3 so far. Fuel was very expensive, and the time and effort to keep them running 24/7 was miserable. I have now tried going solar but have had all sorts of problems with battery life and cloudy weather. It's not as easy as I thought it would be.

pjc50 6y ago
> I'm trying to run a company in a hostile regulatory environment. I've been without power since April 2020. This is in the middle of a city in the United States. .. how? Which city?
- pontifier 6y ago
  Pine Bluff, Arkansas.
- quesera 6y ago
  There might be a relevant distinction between "without power" and "power is not available to me".
  - pontifier 6y ago
    The city won't approve the electrical hookup to the building I purchased. I've had 2 different commercial contractors try to pull permits and both of them were denied. Not denied in writing, but convinced not to file the required application. I was actually assaulted by a zoning officer while sitting in their office trying to fill out an application they didn't want me to submit.
    - quesera 6y ago
      That sounds miserable. Fighting (an office of) City Hall is a painful experience. You must have some idea of why they are obstructing though, right? An electrical permit is an indirect block, so I'm guessing you've fought other battles with the office in the past? In any case, you have a right to file the permit. The office might make your life hell through documented denials or overzealous inspections, but getting the permit filed should be non-controversial. Once filed, they must approve or deny. If denied, there is a formal appeals process which can run through different people/departments. If you have the time and energy for it, of course. Anyway, I know you are not here soliciting advice, but my next step would be to bring a lawyer to the filing office to ensure that the application is filed, and that no further assault occurs. Good luck.

Steltek 6y ago

More than that, they're on a sailboat! Electric motors offer regen when under sailpower, which is absolutely huge, or you can get a towable torpedo generator. Otherwise, get a small wind turbine. You can subsist on PV alone but there are far better options, especially when available PV area is so limited.