6 ms·

Apple Denies Amazon’s Claim That ‘App Store’ Is Generic Term

39 points by Garbage 15y ago

anthonycerra 15y ago
I remember the days when "apps" and "progs" were little programs you found on Astalivista to open your friend's CD-Rom drive through AOL instant messenger. Would that fly as an argument for Amazon in a court of law? Probably not, but it's fun to reminisce about.
- Skywing 15y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that kind of backup Amazon's claims of the term "app" being generic - whether you think those old apps were worthy of the current term or not? I've used the term app for as long as I can remember. Apple certainly did not coin it. Now, if it was for "App Store", as a term, then I could see that.
  - swernli 15y ago
    Yes, it would help show that the term "app" is generic, but that isn't really Amazon's claim. It's a bit more subtle than that. They are claiming that "app store" is a generic term for a store that sells downloadable applications. Apple isn't denying that either "app" or "store" are generic, but rather that the combination into "app store" has specific meaning when applied to the realm of applications that provide a digital storefront to sell additional applications. They might even have a case here, as these kinds of trademark things usually come down to whether or not the public associates the term with a specific source. Basically, it would be considered unfair for Amazon to use the term "app store" if it has a connection to Apple in the public mind, because that would mean that Amazon is technically trading on Apple's reputation. That's what the law would seek to protect, and that might be how Apple could win this case.
    - Blarat 15y ago
      What I really don't understand is how Apple can do this due to the face that Amazon won't (and can't) sell any "Apple app store apps" on their store, so they won't be a competitor. For me it's if a company that produces patches to repair bicycle tubes called their product for "band aid", same idea but different markets.
      - Locke1689 15y ago
        That's not really a fair analogy because, while the Amazon marketplace may not sell iOS Apps, presumably they sell things which compete in the same market (i.e., solve the same problem). The Band-Aid competitors don't literally sell Band-Aids, but they do sell self-adhesive bandages that compete directly with the market for Band-Aids.
        Symmetry 15y ago
        Are they actually competitors? Band-Aid sells bandages for people and other people have band-aids for bicycle tires. Apple has an App Store for iOS devices, while Google and Amazon have app stores for Android devices... I'm not saying its obviously one way or the others, but it doesn't seem clear cut to me.
Osiris 15y ago
I wonder how Apple will counter the statement that Jobs made about the multiple app stores on Android. It seeks as he already used it as a generic term.
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  Same way I'd respond if I was the CEO of Johnson and Johnson and used BandAid when I should have said self-adhesive bandage (or plaster[1]): We own the mark and use the mark so frequently to describe our product that it was a reasonable slip when discussing entities that certainly are similar to the thing our mark describes. [1] Completely unrelated: My first trip to England, I had to buy some Doc Martins from THE Doc Martin store (bucket list kind of thing :). So I'm walking around a lot in them as I schlep around the Midlands and Yorkshire for various meetings and some site seeing, and I've managed to generate some very uncomfortable blisters. I need a BandAid...err...self-adhesive bandage. It's off to the hotel desk in Leeds, "Do you have any BandAids?" "Any what?" "BandAids", I'm now catching on that maybe J&J isn't big here as I see his confused look. I decide to go generic, "Self-adhesive bandages?" The confused look remains. At some point he gets a really pathetic first aid kit without any BandAids in it. I'm now wondering if the UK's medical system was to blame for a country not having self-adhesive bandages. I quickly drop the probability on that to very low, but don't fully eliminate it. I decide it's time to leave the hotel and go where I'm sure I'll find one. "Can you tell me where a drug store is nearby?" Doh. I eventually get pointed to the Chemist. I get there and finally find my BandAids: Plasters? Really? I guess it goes with bendy-busses and the like. Now one more thing. The feet are hurting and some Tylenol would help. Of course there is no Tylenol. I start reading the ingredients, I know acetaminophen must be in one of these. And, of course not. Why didn't I know it was called paracetamol? Needless to say, my US centric view of the world was shattered over the course of those 45 minutes. ...and by the time I finished this story, nobody would care that I used BandAid once to describe a self-adhesive bandage.
  - X-Istence 15y ago
    Paracetamol is the generic drug name all over the world, only the US, Canada, Japan, South-Korea, and Hong Kong uses acetaminophen. Although in Canada they know what paracetamol is at least! So as a Dutch person I was at a pharmacy asking for paracetamol and off course the person behind the counter has absolutely no idea what I am talking about. And directed me to Aleve (naproxen sodium) and Advil (Ibuprofen) and Bayers (Asparin) all of which are NSAID's which can't be taken with certain drugs, and for some reason they are not nearly as effective. It bothered me to no end that the pharmacist had never heard of paracetamol, especially since you have to consider that as a pharmacist you will come in contact with people from all sorts of nationalities.
emitstop 15y ago
I could understand if it was "AppStore" in one word or something to that effect. "App Store" on the other hand is definitely a generic term. "Application" has been shortened to app for a long time and it is very generic. And I'm not sure how much more generic you could possibly make the word "store". Even the "noun store" combination is extremely common and basic, (e.g. computer store, grocery store).
- Steko 15y ago
  The noun windows is also fairly generic. The noun apple is also fairly generic. And yet there are trademarks for these.
  - Typhon 15y ago
    Actually, there are several trademarks for "apple", and it resulted in several lawsuits.
    - Steko 15y ago
      Actually I knew that but the point here is whether generic things can be trademarked, trademarking them multiple times in different areas which then converge is not all that relevant.
extension 15y ago
So, if you have a store that sells apps, what does Apple expect you to call it? Software Shop? Algorithm Emporium? If "app store" can be trademarked, surely there must be an alternative that sounds equally or more generic.
- moondowner 15y ago
  Therefore, "app store" shouldn't be trademarked, because there isn't 'an alternative that sounds equally or more generic'.
- Typhon 15y ago
  How about "Apstor" ? I bet nobody trademarked it yet.
- vog 15y ago
  Maybe it's not so much the term app store but the term app that Apple kind of "registered". Of course, app is just an abbreviation for application, but this term is currently used almost exclusively for applications on Apple platforms.
  - extension 15y ago
    I dunno, "web app" has been common lingo for over a decade. You just don't hear it much anymore because it's lost its buzzword status. Interestingly, the first Google hit for "web app" is some sort of Apple store. A preemptive strike?
    - edanm 15y ago
      Actually, I doubt most people know what a "web app" is. Have you ever tried to explain the difference between a Web Site and a Web App to someone non-technical? Apps, on the other hand, are definitely understood to be mobile applications. Can't say whether it's tied specifically to Apple or not though. That's not to say I agree with App Store being trademarked - it's pretty ridiculous, IMO.
- sigzero 15y ago
rezahazri 15y ago
i think this is because someone owns the www.appstore.com
7952 15y ago
Apple actually benefits from using a generic term. They could have just sold the apps within the itunes app but which may have caused confusion. Do they then have the right to trade mark "calculator" or "calender"? They could have called the calculator isums but that would have caused confusion.
tjogin 15y ago
I dont remember people talking of "app stores" before the App Store.
dvfer 15y ago
Of course they deny it... when does big companies ever agree with anything?
stcredzero 15y ago
It's misty-eyed woo-woo, but it's still fun to think of this as bad karma from "One-Click" coming home to roost.

39 points by Garbage 15y ago

I remember the days when "apps" and "progs" were little programs you found on Astalivista to open your friend's CD-Rom drive through AOL instant messenger. Would that fly as an argument for Amazon in a court of law? Probably not, but it's fun to reminisce about.

Skywing 15y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that kind of backup Amazon's claims of the term "app" being generic - whether you think those old apps were worthy of the current term or not? I've used the term app for as long as I can remember. Apple certainly did not coin it. Now, if it was for "App Store", as a term, then I could see that.
- swernli 15y ago
  Yes, it would help show that the term "app" is generic, but that isn't really Amazon's claim. It's a bit more subtle than that. They are claiming that "app store" is a generic term for a store that sells downloadable applications. Apple isn't denying that either "app" or "store" are generic, but rather that the combination into "app store" has specific meaning when applied to the realm of applications that provide a digital storefront to sell additional applications. They might even have a case here, as these kinds of trademark things usually come down to whether or not the public associates the term with a specific source. Basically, it would be considered unfair for Amazon to use the term "app store" if it has a connection to Apple in the public mind, because that would mean that Amazon is technically trading on Apple's reputation. That's what the law would seek to protect, and that might be how Apple could win this case.
  - Blarat 15y ago
    What I really don't understand is how Apple can do this due to the face that Amazon won't (and can't) sell any "Apple app store apps" on their store, so they won't be a competitor. For me it's if a company that produces patches to repair bicycle tubes called their product for "band aid", same idea but different markets.
    - Locke1689 15y ago
      That's not really a fair analogy because, while the Amazon marketplace may not sell iOS Apps, presumably they sell things which compete in the same market (i.e., solve the same problem). The Band-Aid competitors don't literally sell Band-Aids, but they do sell self-adhesive bandages that compete directly with the market for Band-Aids.
      - Symmetry 15y ago
        Are they actually competitors? Band-Aid sells bandages for people and other people have band-aids for bicycle tires. Apple has an App Store for iOS devices, while Google and Amazon have app stores for Android devices... I'm not saying its obviously one way or the others, but it doesn't seem clear cut to me.

Osiris 15y ago

I wonder how Apple will counter the statement that Jobs made about the multiple app stores on Android. It seeks as he already used it as a generic term.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
Same way I'd respond if I was the CEO of Johnson and Johnson and used BandAid when I should have said self-adhesive bandage (or plaster[1]): We own the mark and use the mark so frequently to describe our product that it was a reasonable slip when discussing entities that certainly are similar to the thing our mark describes. [1] Completely unrelated: My first trip to England, I had to buy some Doc Martins from THE Doc Martin store (bucket list kind of thing :). So I'm walking around a lot in them as I schlep around the Midlands and Yorkshire for various meetings and some site seeing, and I've managed to generate some very uncomfortable blisters. I need a BandAid...err...self-adhesive bandage. It's off to the hotel desk in Leeds, "Do you have any BandAids?" "Any what?" "BandAids", I'm now catching on that maybe J&J isn't big here as I see his confused look. I decide to go generic, "Self-adhesive bandages?" The confused look remains. At some point he gets a really pathetic first aid kit without any BandAids in it. I'm now wondering if the UK's medical system was to blame for a country not having self-adhesive bandages. I quickly drop the probability on that to very low, but don't fully eliminate it. I decide it's time to leave the hotel and go where I'm sure I'll find one. "Can you tell me where a drug store is nearby?" Doh. I eventually get pointed to the Chemist. I get there and finally find my BandAids: Plasters? Really? I guess it goes with bendy-busses and the like. Now one more thing. The feet are hurting and some Tylenol would help. Of course there is no Tylenol. I start reading the ingredients, I know acetaminophen must be in one of these. And, of course not. Why didn't I know it was called paracetamol? Needless to say, my US centric view of the world was shattered over the course of those 45 minutes. ...and by the time I finished this story, nobody would care that I used BandAid once to describe a self-adhesive bandage.
- X-Istence 15y ago
  Paracetamol is the generic drug name all over the world, only the US, Canada, Japan, South-Korea, and Hong Kong uses acetaminophen. Although in Canada they know what paracetamol is at least! So as a Dutch person I was at a pharmacy asking for paracetamol and off course the person behind the counter has absolutely no idea what I am talking about. And directed me to Aleve (naproxen sodium) and Advil (Ibuprofen) and Bayers (Asparin) all of which are NSAID's which can't be taken with certain drugs, and for some reason they are not nearly as effective. It bothered me to no end that the pharmacist had never heard of paracetamol, especially since you have to consider that as a pharmacist you will come in contact with people from all sorts of nationalities.

emitstop 15y ago

I could understand if it was "AppStore" in one word or something to that effect. "App Store" on the other hand is definitely a generic term. "Application" has been shortened to app for a long time and it is very generic. And I'm not sure how much more generic you could possibly make the word "store". Even the "noun store" combination is extremely common and basic, (e.g. computer store, grocery store).

Steko 15y ago
The noun windows is also fairly generic. The noun apple is also fairly generic. And yet there are trademarks for these.
- Typhon 15y ago
  Actually, there are several trademarks for "apple", and it resulted in several lawsuits.
  - Steko 15y ago
    Actually I knew that but the point here is whether generic things can be trademarked, trademarking them multiple times in different areas which then converge is not all that relevant.

extension 15y ago

So, if you have a store that sells apps, what does Apple expect you to call it? Software Shop? Algorithm Emporium? If "app store" can be trademarked, surely there must be an alternative that sounds equally or more generic.

moondowner 15y ago
Therefore, "app store" shouldn't be trademarked, because there isn't 'an alternative that sounds equally or more generic'.
Typhon 15y ago
How about "Apstor" ? I bet nobody trademarked it yet.
vog 15y ago
Maybe it's not so much the term app store but the term app that Apple kind of "registered". Of course, app is just an abbreviation for application, but this term is currently used almost exclusively for applications on Apple platforms.
- extension 15y ago
  I dunno, "web app" has been common lingo for over a decade. You just don't hear it much anymore because it's lost its buzzword status. Interestingly, the first Google hit for "web app" is some sort of Apple store. A preemptive strike?
  - edanm 15y ago
    Actually, I doubt most people know what a "web app" is. Have you ever tried to explain the difference between a Web Site and a Web App to someone non-technical? Apps, on the other hand, are definitely understood to be mobile applications. Can't say whether it's tied specifically to Apple or not though. That's not to say I agree with App Store being trademarked - it's pretty ridiculous, IMO.
sigzero 15y ago

rezahazri 15y ago

i think this is because someone owns the www.appstore.com

7952 15y ago

Apple actually benefits from using a generic term. They could have just sold the apps within the itunes app but which may have caused confusion. Do they then have the right to trade mark "calculator" or "calender"? They could have called the calculator isums but that would have caused confusion.

tjogin 15y ago

I dont remember people talking of "app stores" before the App Store.

dvfer 15y ago

Of course they deny it... when does big companies ever agree with anything?

stcredzero 15y ago

It's misty-eyed woo-woo, but it's still fun to think of this as bad karma from "One-Click" coming home to roost.