3 ms·

Perhaps we should turn to the academic papers on the topic if we are to argue semantics. https://mises.org/wire/capitol-riot-wasnt-coup-it-wasnt-even-close htt

Perhaps we should turn to the academic papers on the topic if we are to argue semantics. https://mises.org/wire/capitol-riot-wasnt-coup-it-wasnt-even-close https://mises.org/wire/capitol-riot-wasnt-coup-it-wasnt-even... >"In their article “Global Instances of Coups from 1950 to 2010: A New Dataset,” authors Jonathan M. Powell and Clayton L. Thyne provide a definition: A coup attempt includes illegal and overt attempts by the military or other elites within the state apparatus to unseat the sitting executive. There are two key components of this definition. The first is that it is illegal. Powell and Thyne note that this “illegal” qualifier is important to include "because it differentiates coups from political pressure, which is common whenever people have freedom to organize." In other words, protests, or threats of protest don’t count as coups. Neither do legal efforts such as a vote of no confidence or an impeachment. But an even more critical aspect of Powell and Thyne’s definition is that it requires the involvement of elites." http://www.uky.edu/~clthyn2/powell-thyne-JPR-2011.pdf http://www.uky.edu/~clthyn2/powell-thyne-JPR-2011.pdf >"Nonetheless, we should not be surprised that the media has rushed to apply the term to the riot. This phenomenon was examined in a November 2019 article titled “Coup with Adjectives: Conceptual Stretching or Innovation in Comparative Research?,” by Leiv Marsteintredet and Andres Malamud. The authors note that as the incidence of real coups has declined, the word has become more common but with modifiers attached." https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0032321719888857 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0032321719888857

dragonwriter 6y ago
> A coup attempt includes illegal and overt attempts by the military or other elites within the state apparatus to unseat the sitting executive. That’s a rather incomplete definition: —quote— Threats to democracy involve officeholders’ abuse of the official powers given to— them within a democracy through the unconstitutional extension of those powers either temporally or substantively. This abuse is most dramatic in a coup d’état. The traditional coup occurs when one part of the state attempts to take over other organs of the state using force or the threat of force. Because the military represents that part of the state meant to control a monopoly of force,3 the military is the most frequent – but not the only – culprit. Other kinds of coups could occur if a head of government uses unconstitutional means to dismiss judges who deliver unwelcome judgments (what Dr. Mort Halperin calls an “auto-coup”), or to get rid of an “uncontrollable” legislature in order to rule by decree instead (another form of autocoup). A distinct but functionally similar threat is of the erosion of democracy, where officials abuse their constitutional powers to take over gradually the powers of other institutions, as in Zimbabwe. —end-quote— https://eprints.qut.edu.au/42605/1/World_Politics_Review.pdf https://eprints.qut.edu.au/42605/1/World_Politics_Review.pdf > There are two key components of this definition. The first is that it is illegal. […] But an even more critical aspect of Powell and Thyne’s definition is that it requires the involvement of elites And the attack on the Capitol was both illegal violence and with the involvement of elites, who egged it on because they sought to benefit from it, so what’s your point?
- aww_dang 6y ago
  I don't think there were grandmas with thermoses on the beaches in the Bay of Pigs. Riots are generally illegal by definition. If Trump asking people to go home and respect police officers is your idea of elite involvement, we've reached an impasse. Take care.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > If Trump asking people to go home and respect police officers is your idea of elite involvement No, that's my idea of elite abandonment after the attack had failed, similar to the American abandonment of the pawns in the Bay of Pigs. The incitement by Trump, Giuliani, et al., immediately prior to the attack is my idea of elite involvement.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> A coup attempt includes illegal and overt attempts by the military or other elites within the state apparatus to unseat the sitting executive. That’s a rather incomplete definition: —quote— Threats to democracy involve officeholders’ abuse of the official powers given to— them within a democracy through the unconstitutional extension of those powers either temporally or substantively. This abuse is most dramatic in a coup d’état. The traditional coup occurs when one part of the state attempts to take over other organs of the state using force or the threat of force. Because the military represents that part of the state meant to control a monopoly of force,3 the military is the most frequent – but not the only – culprit. Other kinds of coups could occur if a head of government uses unconstitutional means to dismiss judges who deliver unwelcome judgments (what Dr. Mort Halperin calls an “auto-coup”), or to get rid of an “uncontrollable” legislature in order to rule by decree instead (another form of autocoup). A distinct but functionally similar threat is of the erosion of democracy, where officials abuse their constitutional powers to take over gradually the powers of other institutions, as in Zimbabwe. —end-quote— https://eprints.qut.edu.au/42605/1/World_Politics_Review.pdf https://eprints.qut.edu.au/42605/1/World_Politics_Review.pdf > There are two key components of this definition. The first is that it is illegal. […] But an even more critical aspect of Powell and Thyne’s definition is that it requires the involvement of elites And the attack on the Capitol was both illegal violence and with the involvement of elites, who egged it on because they sought to benefit from it, so what’s your point?

aww_dang 6y ago
I don't think there were grandmas with thermoses on the beaches in the Bay of Pigs. Riots are generally illegal by definition. If Trump asking people to go home and respect police officers is your idea of elite involvement, we've reached an impasse. Take care.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > If Trump asking people to go home and respect police officers is your idea of elite involvement No, that's my idea of elite abandonment after the attack had failed, similar to the American abandonment of the pawns in the Bay of Pigs. The incitement by Trump, Giuliani, et al., immediately prior to the attack is my idea of elite involvement.