4 ms·

> Giuliani "meaningfully facilitated illegal insurrection against a peaceful transition"? I think it takes a particularly steelman interpretation to see the co

by txru 6y ago

> Giuliani "meaningfully facilitated illegal insurrection against a peaceful transition"? I think it takes a particularly steelman interpretation to see the content of Giuliani's "trial by combat" speech as not insurrectionist. “So let’s have trial by combat! I’m willing to stake my reputation, the president is willing to stake his reputation on the fact that we’re going to find criminality there.” > last summer Sure, there are democrats who turned too much of a blind-eye to violence over the past summer. But I find it fallacious in the extreme to equate reducing a police budget with insurrection. For the particular New York exception, the budget cut to NYPD came to about 10% of the budget, which very closely tracks New York's budget shortfall as a result of the Covid exodus from the city (12% budget shortfall) [0]. > head-on-a-pike “I’d actually like to go back to the old times of Tudor England. I’d put the heads on pikes. I’d put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats,” he explained, as Media Matters for America first reported. “You either get with the program or you’re gone ― time to stop playing games,” Bannon added. “Blow it all up.” “That’s how you win the revolution,” Bannon said. “The revolution wasn’t some sort of garden party. It was a civil war.” Even when one takes that statement as charitably as you do, it doesn't help the level of discourse. > Left leaning celebrities I said upthread, I believe we should be moving corporate moderation etc into a local government due process. IMO the Texas DA (for example) should be able to ask Twitter to moderate a statement like that, and have the moderation heard in court. But Snoop Dogg doesn't hold nuclear codes, or hold the ear of the person who does. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-city-budget-police-defunding/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-city-budget-police-d...

dragonwriter 6y ago
> IMO the Texas DA (for example) should be able to ask Twitter to moderate a statement like that, and have the moderation heard in court. If the content is criminal to knowingly carry, they can. (And not just “ask”, they can notify Twitter and inform them they will file criminal charges otherwise.) If its lawful content, law enforcement at any level has no business getting involved, that’s kind of the point of the First Amendment. But Twitter also isn’t (unless it has a contract in place obligating it to someone) required to carry any content, just because they aren’t legally prohibited from doing so. That’s also what the First Amendment is about.
berneezy3 6y ago
First off, thank you for providing your sources. I wasn't aware of Giuliani's speech before you posted. Now, on to your points. > But I find it fallacious in the extreme to equate reducing a police budget with insurrection. It's not just the reduction of the NYC police budget that I am referring to as insurrection. It's the post-George-Floyd rioting, and the extreme comments made by certain leaders of these movements that I see as insurrectionist. In many cities across the country, government buildings were vandalised/looted, the Portland Federal courthouse set on fire being an example [1]. In another example, Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the BLM organization, has referred to herself and another co-founder as "trained marxists", and cites Mao Tse-tung as political inspiration [2][3]. In another case, the BLM Chicago organizer Latrell Allen publicly supported looting, likening it to a form of reparations [4]. And, I want to be clear, I am not criticizing entirety of the BLM movement, simply the factions that have made extreme statements or engaged in violence. Would you classify these as insurrectionist as well? > the budget cut to NYPD came to about 10% of the budget, which very closely tracks New York's budget shortfall as a result of the Covid exodus from the city Even taking into the consideration the budget shortfall, the NYPD was defunded significantly out-of-proportion in regards to other agencies. In fact, from your quote alone, it seems like the NYPD bore the entire brunt of the NYC budget shortfall. So even though there was a budget shortfall, I would still consider the NYPD to have been intentionally defunded. FYI, here are statistics on the NYC crime rate after the budget cuts [5]. > But Snoop Dogg doesn't hold nuclear codes, or hold the ear of the person who does. Yes, thank you, Snoop Dogg indeed doesn't hold the nuclear codes, but celebrities and Hollywood in general holds influence amongst the population, and they certainly hold the ears of politicians as well. > Even when one takes that statement as charitably as you do, it doesn't help the level of discourse. I don't think I'm taking the statements charitably, I'm trying to separate analogy from intent; however, I agree that such rhetoric certainly doesn't help discourse. I would even go on to say that in the ears of extremists, such rhetoric is dangerous and provocative. But, in the Bannon quotes you mentioned, I personally don't interpret him as speaking in a literal sense. As someone who occasionally tuned into Bannon's show, Bannon's ultimate objective seems to be to take down the CCP. Since we are already engaged in a political/cyber/information war with China (which hopefully doesn't escalate into a kinetic war), Bannon tends to frame everything leading up to a confrontation with China with war analogies. But again, such rhetoric will not help his cause, and I agree that it can be dangerous. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/police-declare-riot-portland-amid-ongoing-protests-72463294 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/police-declare-riot-... [2] (go to 7:03 for the quote) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCghDx5qN4s&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=TheRealNewsNetwork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCghDx5qN4s&feature=emb_titl... [3] https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/39587/1/black-lives-matter-founder-interview-patrisse-khan-cullors https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/39587/1/black-... [4] https://www.wbez.org/stories/winning-has-come-through-revolts-a-black-lives-matter-activist-on-why-she-supports-looting/398d0f3f-73d0-4f2e-ae32-04cceba0d322 https://www.wbez.org/stories/winning-has-come-through-revolt... [5] https://abc7ny.com/nyc-crime-shooting-nypd-defund-the-police/6350973/ https://abc7ny.com/nyc-crime-shooting-nypd-defund-the-police...

by txru 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> IMO the Texas DA (for example) should be able to ask Twitter to moderate a statement like that, and have the moderation heard in court. If the content is criminal to knowingly carry, they can. (And not just “ask”, they can notify Twitter and inform them they will file criminal charges otherwise.) If its lawful content, law enforcement at any level has no business getting involved, that’s kind of the point of the First Amendment. But Twitter also isn’t (unless it has a contract in place obligating it to someone) required to carry any content, just because they aren’t legally prohibited from doing so. That’s also what the First Amendment is about.

berneezy3 6y ago

First off, thank you for providing your sources. I wasn't aware of Giuliani's speech before you posted. Now, on to your points. > But I find it fallacious in the extreme to equate reducing a police budget with insurrection. It's not just the reduction of the NYC police budget that I am referring to as insurrection. It's the post-George-Floyd rioting, and the extreme comments made by certain leaders of these movements that I see as insurrectionist. In many cities across the country, government buildings were vandalised/looted, the Portland Federal courthouse set on fire being an example [1]. In another example, Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the BLM organization, has referred to herself and another co-founder as "trained marxists", and cites Mao Tse-tung as political inspiration [2][3]. In another case, the BLM Chicago organizer Latrell Allen publicly supported looting, likening it to a form of reparations [4]. And, I want to be clear, I am not criticizing entirety of the BLM movement, simply the factions that have made extreme statements or engaged in violence. Would you classify these as insurrectionist as well? > the budget cut to NYPD came to about 10% of the budget, which very closely tracks New York's budget shortfall as a result of the Covid exodus from the city Even taking into the consideration the budget shortfall, the NYPD was defunded significantly out-of-proportion in regards to other agencies. In fact, from your quote alone, it seems like the NYPD bore the entire brunt of the NYC budget shortfall. So even though there was a budget shortfall, I would still consider the NYPD to have been intentionally defunded. FYI, here are statistics on the NYC crime rate after the budget cuts [5]. > But Snoop Dogg doesn't hold nuclear codes, or hold the ear of the person who does. Yes, thank you, Snoop Dogg indeed doesn't hold the nuclear codes, but celebrities and Hollywood in general holds influence amongst the population, and they certainly hold the ears of politicians as well. > Even when one takes that statement as charitably as you do, it doesn't help the level of discourse. I don't think I'm taking the statements charitably, I'm trying to separate analogy from intent; however, I agree that such rhetoric certainly doesn't help discourse. I would even go on to say that in the ears of extremists, such rhetoric is dangerous and provocative. But, in the Bannon quotes you mentioned, I personally don't interpret him as speaking in a literal sense. As someone who occasionally tuned into Bannon's show, Bannon's ultimate objective seems to be to take down the CCP. Since we are already engaged in a political/cyber/information war with China (which hopefully doesn't escalate into a kinetic war), Bannon tends to frame everything leading up to a confrontation with China with war analogies. But again, such rhetoric will not help his cause, and I agree that it can be dangerous. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/police-declare-riot-portland-amid-ongoing-protests-72463294 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/police-declare-riot-... [2] (go to 7:03 for the quote) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCghDx5qN4s&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=TheRealNewsNetwork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCghDx5qN4s&feature=emb_titl... [3] https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/39587/1/black-lives-matter-founder-interview-patrisse-khan-cullors https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/39587/1/black-... [4] https://www.wbez.org/stories/winning-has-come-through-revolts-a-black-lives-matter-activist-on-why-she-supports-looting/398d0f3f-73d0-4f2e-ae32-04cceba0d322 https://www.wbez.org/stories/winning-has-come-through-revolt... [5] https://abc7ny.com/nyc-crime-shooting-nypd-defund-the-police/6350973/ https://abc7ny.com/nyc-crime-shooting-nypd-defund-the-police...