4 ms·

Nobody is saying “don’t arrest and prosecute the people who invaded the Capitol”. This is about the campaign finance/social media account/etc of the current si

Nobody is saying “don’t arrest and prosecute the people who invaded the Capitol”. This is about the campaign finance/social media account/etc of the current sitting POTUS. You don’t need to condone the actions of the Capitol terrorists to take issue with him being banned from every platform having committed no crime (or at least, not having been convicted of any crime). A few hundred people invaded the Capitol, but tens of millions of people voted for Trump. We’re not talking about the former; I think it’s very reasonable to be concerned that this divisiveness might radicalise the latter.

npunt 6y ago
Serious question: Would those people have been at the Capitol without Trump's 'Stop the Steal' rhetoric?
- nmfisher 6y ago
  Maybe, I don't know. There was a group of people arrested in Michigan (?) for the kidnapping of the Governor (?), so it's possible. But either way, I don't think it's relevant. If you want to boot someone off social media because they espouse a cause that others take too far, then there's a lot of BLM people who should receive the same fate. Anything else is rank hypocrisy. It's worth adding that I think Trump is a puerile moron and "the election was stolen" people are loons (even the ones who didn't break into the Capitol or attend a protest). I'm not even an American, I have no dog in this fight. But the double standard is so painfully clear, even from thousands of kilometres away. Applying these rules/bans/etc in such a blatantly partisan manner is only going to increase this divisiveness, the USA will tear itself apart from the inside.
  - yters 6y ago
    BLM rhetoric has resulted in the assassination of numerous police officers, yet no one is deplatforming BLM.
  - npunt 6y ago
    At least when it comes to BLM vs Capitol there are three very important differences that far outweigh the surface level similarities: 1. Power - what happened at the Capitol was conducted by people who have enjoyed broad political power, whereas the BLM protests were about the people who have been unjustly under the thumb (or knee) of those in power. 2. Message - the BLM protests were about very real and well documented and long-standing mistreatment of Black Americans at the hands of police, where the ‘stop the steal’ crowd is angry about a complete fabrication. 3. Stakes - is the event threatening to the foundation of society? I think this one is pretty straightforward. While on the surface the BLM and Capitol events look similar (large groups of people protesting, small groups within committing violence, some government buildings involved), their basis and moral authority are entirely different. As far as the decision to deplatform, the nature of these types of things is there will never and can never be a simple rule to dictate important judgment calls. Law is not code, nor are the actions or ToS’s of companies. Trump is such a singular figure that is completely unlike others, commanding a huge amount of power through 85M followers and the bully pulpit of the presidency. He is nothing like any BLM or frankly any other Twitter user that it’s almost seems like a joke to draw comparison. That can’t be ignored, in fact that’s the very point - he’s unique, and uniquely dangerous. There is no double standard because there is no comparison. He’s literally the most powerful person in America and Black people are as a group are the least powerful. That matters. As far as the consequences, well it’s damned if you do damned if you don’t as far as I can see. We have a lot of real problems and divisions in society, and now a lot of people have been whipped up into holding imagined grievances that some are likely to translate into violence down the line. Meanwhile the next few weeks are an incredibly vulnerable time in American democracy due to the power vacuum that occurs during a transfer of power, and based on what information we have available to us, it looks like violence and disruption was being planned prior to any deplatforming. That’s very scary, and we need to do what we can to reasonably minimize that risk.
    - doubleunplussed 6y ago
      >1. Power - what happened at the Capitol was conducted by people who have enjoyed broad political power, whereas the BLM protests were about the people who have been unjustly under the thumb (or knee) of those in power. I don't think this is true at all. There is a lot of resentment out there from poor whites who have been getting the short end of many sticks lately. They may be better off than poor blacks on average, but they do not enjoy political power. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because the people who enjoy political power are white, that all, or even most, whites enjoy political power. I believe both protests were by groups lacking in power, and that this sort of thing is only going to get worse as economic inequality increases. Most people don't have power, and it's getting worse as power is concentrated into the hands of the few. As bad as black people have it on average, pitting poor blacks against poor whites is a distraction from the real power disparity, which is that a lot of people in the US are really, really poor. Whilst the elites pay lip service to the issues faced by blacks, whist doing almost nothing to help (a rich black kid getting into a better school does nothing for the impoverished masses), the poorer whites don't feel like the elites are even pretending to try to address their problems. And they're right. The US needs to fix its inequality issues if it expects either side to stop protesting, and violence is only going to get worse as people see their issues not being addressed. Storming the capital was not a bright idea, but angry people are stupid, and they're going to just cause as much destruction as possible until life for them gets better. History is littered with examples of inequality leading to violent uprising.
invisible 6y ago
> We’re leading Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes, and then late in the evening or early in the morning, boom, these explosions of and bullshit, and all of a sudden. All of a sudden it started to happen. > Rudy, you did a great job. He’s got guts. You know what? He’s got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican party. He’s got guts, he fights. He fights, and I’ll tell you. > We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. > We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong. > I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. > It was going to be great. And now we’re out here fighting. > I want to thank the more than 140 members of the House. Those are warriors. ... Where is Hillary? Where is she? > But it used to be that they’d argue with me, I’d fight. So I’d fight, they’d fight. I’d fight, they’d fight. ... What happened to Hunter? Where’s Hunter? > Now that’s many, many times what it would take to overthrow the state. Just that one element. 400,000 ballots appeared from nowhere, right after the election. (Use of “overthrow the state.”) > Let them get out. Let the weak ones get out. This is a time for strength. ... They want to indoctrinate your children. > We did good. We got rid of the ISIS caliphate. ... In Wisconsin, corrupt Democrat run cities deployed more than 500 illegal unmanned, unsecured drop boxes, which collected a minimum of 91,000 unlawful votes. > When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules. So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do. > Looking out at all the amazing patriots here today, I have never been more confident in our nation’s future. > So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. - POTUS Trump That’s only part of the stuff he said during the speech immediately before they marched, at his direction, to the Capitol building. He mentioned being peaceful once in his speech. Most of the undertones of the speech were about fighting/being strong for their way of life and belief in him being the rightful winner.

npunt 6y ago

Serious question: Would those people have been at the Capitol without Trump's 'Stop the Steal' rhetoric?

nmfisher 6y ago
Maybe, I don't know. There was a group of people arrested in Michigan (?) for the kidnapping of the Governor (?), so it's possible. But either way, I don't think it's relevant. If you want to boot someone off social media because they espouse a cause that others take too far, then there's a lot of BLM people who should receive the same fate. Anything else is rank hypocrisy. It's worth adding that I think Trump is a puerile moron and "the election was stolen" people are loons (even the ones who didn't break into the Capitol or attend a protest). I'm not even an American, I have no dog in this fight. But the double standard is so painfully clear, even from thousands of kilometres away. Applying these rules/bans/etc in such a blatantly partisan manner is only going to increase this divisiveness, the USA will tear itself apart from the inside.
- yters 6y ago
  BLM rhetoric has resulted in the assassination of numerous police officers, yet no one is deplatforming BLM.
- npunt 6y ago
  At least when it comes to BLM vs Capitol there are three very important differences that far outweigh the surface level similarities: 1. Power - what happened at the Capitol was conducted by people who have enjoyed broad political power, whereas the BLM protests were about the people who have been unjustly under the thumb (or knee) of those in power. 2. Message - the BLM protests were about very real and well documented and long-standing mistreatment of Black Americans at the hands of police, where the ‘stop the steal’ crowd is angry about a complete fabrication. 3. Stakes - is the event threatening to the foundation of society? I think this one is pretty straightforward. While on the surface the BLM and Capitol events look similar (large groups of people protesting, small groups within committing violence, some government buildings involved), their basis and moral authority are entirely different. As far as the decision to deplatform, the nature of these types of things is there will never and can never be a simple rule to dictate important judgment calls. Law is not code, nor are the actions or ToS’s of companies. Trump is such a singular figure that is completely unlike others, commanding a huge amount of power through 85M followers and the bully pulpit of the presidency. He is nothing like any BLM or frankly any other Twitter user that it’s almost seems like a joke to draw comparison. That can’t be ignored, in fact that’s the very point - he’s unique, and uniquely dangerous. There is no double standard because there is no comparison. He’s literally the most powerful person in America and Black people are as a group are the least powerful. That matters. As far as the consequences, well it’s damned if you do damned if you don’t as far as I can see. We have a lot of real problems and divisions in society, and now a lot of people have been whipped up into holding imagined grievances that some are likely to translate into violence down the line. Meanwhile the next few weeks are an incredibly vulnerable time in American democracy due to the power vacuum that occurs during a transfer of power, and based on what information we have available to us, it looks like violence and disruption was being planned prior to any deplatforming. That’s very scary, and we need to do what we can to reasonably minimize that risk.
  - doubleunplussed 6y ago
    >1. Power - what happened at the Capitol was conducted by people who have enjoyed broad political power, whereas the BLM protests were about the people who have been unjustly under the thumb (or knee) of those in power. I don't think this is true at all. There is a lot of resentment out there from poor whites who have been getting the short end of many sticks lately. They may be better off than poor blacks on average, but they do not enjoy political power. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because the people who enjoy political power are white, that all, or even most, whites enjoy political power. I believe both protests were by groups lacking in power, and that this sort of thing is only going to get worse as economic inequality increases. Most people don't have power, and it's getting worse as power is concentrated into the hands of the few. As bad as black people have it on average, pitting poor blacks against poor whites is a distraction from the real power disparity, which is that a lot of people in the US are really, really poor. Whilst the elites pay lip service to the issues faced by blacks, whist doing almost nothing to help (a rich black kid getting into a better school does nothing for the impoverished masses), the poorer whites don't feel like the elites are even pretending to try to address their problems. And they're right. The US needs to fix its inequality issues if it expects either side to stop protesting, and violence is only going to get worse as people see their issues not being addressed. Storming the capital was not a bright idea, but angry people are stupid, and they're going to just cause as much destruction as possible until life for them gets better. History is littered with examples of inequality leading to violent uprising.

invisible 6y ago

> We’re leading Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes, and then late in the evening or early in the morning, boom, these explosions of and bullshit, and all of a sudden. All of a sudden it started to happen. > Rudy, you did a great job. He’s got guts. You know what? He’s got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican party. He’s got guts, he fights. He fights, and I’ll tell you. > We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. > We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong. > I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. > It was going to be great. And now we’re out here fighting. > I want to thank the more than 140 members of the House. Those are warriors. ... Where is Hillary? Where is she? > But it used to be that they’d argue with me, I’d fight. So I’d fight, they’d fight. I’d fight, they’d fight. ... What happened to Hunter? Where’s Hunter? > Now that’s many, many times what it would take to overthrow the state. Just that one element. 400,000 ballots appeared from nowhere, right after the election. (Use of “overthrow the state.”) > Let them get out. Let the weak ones get out. This is a time for strength. ... They want to indoctrinate your children. > We did good. We got rid of the ISIS caliphate. ... In Wisconsin, corrupt Democrat run cities deployed more than 500 illegal unmanned, unsecured drop boxes, which collected a minimum of 91,000 unlawful votes. > When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules. So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do. > Looking out at all the amazing patriots here today, I have never been more confident in our nation’s future. > So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. - POTUS Trump That’s only part of the stuff he said during the speech immediately before they marched, at his direction, to the Capitol building. He mentioned being peaceful once in his speech. Most of the undertones of the speech were about fighting/being strong for their way of life and belief in him being the rightful winner.