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Some of the benefits of retro computing is learning how computers work on a lower level than you might with a modern computer. While modern computers are far mo

Some of the benefits of retro computing is learning how computers work on a lower level than you might with a modern computer. While modern computers are far more complex than any retro and there isn't a one-to-one analog for how they work the fundamentals are there. I learned starting in the 8-bit era and advanced as computers advanced. Also a great impetus to learn how to write small optimized code to work within the limitations of the platform.

bombcar 6y ago
Conceptually all the pieces are there - modern computers have greatly enhanced capabilities and can obviously do much more - but you can often “black box” large segments of a modern when comparing to a classic. And the classic computers run on “human scale” in that they can be understood both in the parts and a whole - perfect for learning.
- mark-r 6y ago
  The whole goal of a modern computer is to abstract away the lower level details that don't matter to most people. The benefit of growing up with those classic computers is that you got to understand the details before they were abstracted away out of sight. The nostalgia is not misplaced.
II2II 6y ago
It's worth noting that learning how computers work at a lower level goes down to the electronics. I've seen some repair videos go down to digging out an oscilloscope and looking at what is on the bus. Good luck trying to connect the probes on modern equipment, never mind being able to afford the test equipment. It is also possible to make good progress with a cheap iron and a multimeter, learn about component properties, reading circuit diagrams, and many other relevant skills. Best of all, all of the learning is being done on what was real world hardware at one time rather than circuits designed for learning or that are isolated from the system that they would normally be part of.
- macjohnmcc 6y ago
  What is even more interesting once you know how it works at that level is to learn how electricity works at a more fundamental level.
archi42 6y ago
You don't really need a full blown retro computer for all that. There are plenty of "modern" (as in "in production and in use") 8 bit embedded CPUs out there. Arduino/atmega comes to my mind, just ditch the IDE. Instead program assembly and assemble + program the board using their toolchain. Of course, at first the analog part (CRT, old keyboard) will be missing, but these are not needed to write your own little kernel. However, I did a quick search, and it seems the Arduino can interface with a VGA display: On the hardware side of things this only needs some resistors, and software side could be deemed as an interesting exercise ;-)
- Shikadi 6y ago
  There's also the charm of programming graphics and sound chips, and having the same resources available as those from the 80s. There aren't endless computer magazines devoted to learning about programming the arduino and all the interesting tricks to get better graphics. Sure we have tutorials and all the information available on the internet, but arduino is niche, while commodore 64 was completely mainstream. You can definitely learn the same concepts on both, but I think it's subjective (depending on how someone learns) which is the better platform to learn on. In fact, I'd argue to learn on both!
  - macjohnmcc 6y ago
    I think part of the appeal of the retro computers is learning to work within their limitations from memory, sound capability, etc. Sometimes having boundaries can fuel ingenuity.
    - archi42 6y ago
      Hats of to the demo scene in that regard. (Some of them just should do less drugs ^^")
- macjohnmcc 6y ago
  The only downside to this approach is that you have to use a modern computer to do anything with that retro like hardware. Not that that is a horrible thing but it's another layer.
epicide 6y ago
By far one of the most useful courses I had while pursuing my degree was on writing assembly for 16-bit DOS. The course didn't just focus on writing assembly for its own sake, but rather as a way to teach lower level concepts. e.g. the entire concept of CPU registers, translating 1:1 between assembly and machine code, examining C compiler output, low-level debugging, disassembly, etc. Day one of the course had us download and set up DOSBox, which was brilliant. DOSBox will run on a huge number of platforms and, as you and others suggest, locks you into a very well-known simpler 16-bit system that can't ever change (the games it's meant to emulate would stop working).

bombcar 6y ago

Conceptually all the pieces are there - modern computers have greatly enhanced capabilities and can obviously do much more - but you can often “black box” large segments of a modern when comparing to a classic. And the classic computers run on “human scale” in that they can be understood both in the parts and a whole - perfect for learning.

mark-r 6y ago
The whole goal of a modern computer is to abstract away the lower level details that don't matter to most people. The benefit of growing up with those classic computers is that you got to understand the details before they were abstracted away out of sight. The nostalgia is not misplaced.

II2II 6y ago

It's worth noting that learning how computers work at a lower level goes down to the electronics. I've seen some repair videos go down to digging out an oscilloscope and looking at what is on the bus. Good luck trying to connect the probes on modern equipment, never mind being able to afford the test equipment. It is also possible to make good progress with a cheap iron and a multimeter, learn about component properties, reading circuit diagrams, and many other relevant skills. Best of all, all of the learning is being done on what was real world hardware at one time rather than circuits designed for learning or that are isolated from the system that they would normally be part of.

macjohnmcc 6y ago
What is even more interesting once you know how it works at that level is to learn how electricity works at a more fundamental level.

archi42 6y ago

You don't really need a full blown retro computer for all that. There are plenty of "modern" (as in "in production and in use") 8 bit embedded CPUs out there. Arduino/atmega comes to my mind, just ditch the IDE. Instead program assembly and assemble + program the board using their toolchain. Of course, at first the analog part (CRT, old keyboard) will be missing, but these are not needed to write your own little kernel. However, I did a quick search, and it seems the Arduino can interface with a VGA display: On the hardware side of things this only needs some resistors, and software side could be deemed as an interesting exercise ;-)

Shikadi 6y ago
There's also the charm of programming graphics and sound chips, and having the same resources available as those from the 80s. There aren't endless computer magazines devoted to learning about programming the arduino and all the interesting tricks to get better graphics. Sure we have tutorials and all the information available on the internet, but arduino is niche, while commodore 64 was completely mainstream. You can definitely learn the same concepts on both, but I think it's subjective (depending on how someone learns) which is the better platform to learn on. In fact, I'd argue to learn on both!
- macjohnmcc 6y ago
  I think part of the appeal of the retro computers is learning to work within their limitations from memory, sound capability, etc. Sometimes having boundaries can fuel ingenuity.
  - archi42 6y ago
    Hats of to the demo scene in that regard. (Some of them just should do less drugs ^^")
macjohnmcc 6y ago
The only downside to this approach is that you have to use a modern computer to do anything with that retro like hardware. Not that that is a horrible thing but it's another layer.

epicide 6y ago

By far one of the most useful courses I had while pursuing my degree was on writing assembly for 16-bit DOS. The course didn't just focus on writing assembly for its own sake, but rather as a way to teach lower level concepts. e.g. the entire concept of CPU registers, translating 1:1 between assembly and machine code, examining C compiler output, low-level debugging, disassembly, etc. Day one of the course had us download and set up DOSBox, which was brilliant. DOSBox will run on a huge number of platforms and, as you and others suggest, locks you into a very well-known simpler 16-bit system that can't ever change (the games it's meant to emulate would stop working).