5 ms·

I don't think it is reasonable - I am just explaining the psychology of how people can get swept up in the fervor of crowds. I am fully in support of arresting

I don't think it is reasonable - I am just explaining the psychology of how people can get swept up in the fervor of crowds. I am fully in support of arresting all who participated. But my point is that it is not reasonable to conclude that Trump's speech incited people to illegally invade the capitol, commit theft/vandalism, and assault officers. His speech literally had a line saying "peacefully protest". The vast majority of people hearing his speech did not break the law. So how can there be a conclusion that he incited people to break the law? Those who broke the law are independent humans who hold personal responsibility for their actions. Unless Trump explicitly urges them to commit crimes, charging him with incitement is wrong.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nelsondev 6y ago
On that note, what specifically from Trump’s speech was inciting violence? “March” != “Riot” This is the section about marching to the Capitol. “ And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated. Lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today, we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections. But whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long time. Far longer than this four year period.” “ Full text of his speech (rambling and painful to read, but there was no advocating for violence: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-told-supporters-stormed-capitol-hill/story?id=75110558 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-told-supporters-storme...
- mushbino 6y ago
  Rudy: "Let's have trial by combat" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5FfcbpVLNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5FfcbpVLNo Trump: The entirety of this speech, but specifically the "fight like hell" part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjYh4tIhVi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjYh4tIhVi4 Trump: "Be there, it will be wild": https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/capitol-mob-trump-supporters.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/capitol-mob-t... This article covers a lot of it too. It's been stoked for a while: https://fortune.com/2021/01/07/trump-speech-capitol-attack-riots-pence-we-will-never-concede-maga-rally/ https://fortune.com/2021/01/07/trump-speech-capitol-attack-r...
  - lliamander 6y ago
    All figurative language that politicians (and non-politicians) use all the time. Joe Biden literally expressed a desire to physically harm the President, and dramatic, ecstatic portrayals of his death have been shared for his entire presidency.
    - mushbino 6y ago
      It's looking like there might be a trial in the senate so we'll see if the "figurative language" argument holds up. Trump telling the rioters "I love you" after they stormed the capitol doesn't look too good in that regard. Comparing what you're saying about democrats and Biden to what the president has been saying for years and all of the talk on facebook, twitter, r/thedonald, Parler, and Gab is being willfully ignorant. The results speak for themselves.
      - lliamander 6y ago
        He said "I love you" in order to connect emotionally with the crowd as part of a message to tell them to go home. It's also just how he speaks to his supporters. He's not telling them that his loves them for having stormed the capitol. You are engaging in the most disingenuous interpretations of his words. And there is no willful ingorance here. I know the things said by randos on r/thedonald can often be pretty horrendous. There are horrendous randos everywhere. Just look at r/politics. The things people in power have said about Trump and his supporters is also quite terrible, and the fact that they have power makes it worse. The ignorance is yours.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- itronitron 6y ago
  Thank you for posting a link to the full text of Trump's speech. Consider this section from the last paragraph... "the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote"
  - blueflame7 6y ago
    The didn't. Democrats never break rank. Ever.
amanaplanacanal 6y ago
If he does get charged, it will be a jury that decides, after they hear all the evidence. All we know are what we see in the internet.
ryandrake 6y ago
> I am just explaining the psychology of how people can get swept up in the fervor of crowds. So, “Whoopsie! I accidentally entered the Capitol through that broken window and got peer pressured right into the Senate?”
- pixl97 6y ago
  "Oops, I may have committed some light treason"
- 8note 6y ago
  People do get dumb in mobs, so that could be true
  - redisman 6y ago
    It’s pretty wild that statements like “people do dumb things in mobs” are controversial depending on the prism people are looking through
  - jusssi 6y ago
    Alcohol makes some people aggressive. The right solution, for those people, is to not drink alcohol. And "but I was drunk" is not considered a valid defense. Maybe the same standard should be applied to people who decide to join a mob, if we're assuming they're not dumb already before joining one.
rodgerd 6y ago
Ah, yes, the spontaneously generated pipe bombs, firearms, merchandise (t-shirts, caps, you name it), messages organising weeks before, zip-cuffs, hangman's platform, and spears.
- eganist 6y ago
  It'd be an interesting twist in the simulation if the entities were materialized/determined only when the chest^H^H^H^H^H^H truck was examined.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

nelsondev 6y ago

On that note, what specifically from Trump’s speech was inciting violence? “March” != “Riot” This is the section about marching to the Capitol. “ And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated. Lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today, we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections. But whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long time. Far longer than this four year period.” “ Full text of his speech (rambling and painful to read, but there was no advocating for violence: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-told-supporters-stormed-capitol-hill/story?id=75110558 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-told-supporters-storme...

mushbino 6y ago
Rudy: "Let's have trial by combat" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5FfcbpVLNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5FfcbpVLNo Trump: The entirety of this speech, but specifically the "fight like hell" part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjYh4tIhVi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjYh4tIhVi4 Trump: "Be there, it will be wild": https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/capitol-mob-trump-supporters.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/capitol-mob-t... This article covers a lot of it too. It's been stoked for a while: https://fortune.com/2021/01/07/trump-speech-capitol-attack-riots-pence-we-will-never-concede-maga-rally/ https://fortune.com/2021/01/07/trump-speech-capitol-attack-r...
- lliamander 6y ago
  All figurative language that politicians (and non-politicians) use all the time. Joe Biden literally expressed a desire to physically harm the President, and dramatic, ecstatic portrayals of his death have been shared for his entire presidency.
  - mushbino 6y ago
    It's looking like there might be a trial in the senate so we'll see if the "figurative language" argument holds up. Trump telling the rioters "I love you" after they stormed the capitol doesn't look too good in that regard. Comparing what you're saying about democrats and Biden to what the president has been saying for years and all of the talk on facebook, twitter, r/thedonald, Parler, and Gab is being willfully ignorant. The results speak for themselves.
    - lliamander 6y ago
      He said "I love you" in order to connect emotionally with the crowd as part of a message to tell them to go home. It's also just how he speaks to his supporters. He's not telling them that his loves them for having stormed the capitol. You are engaging in the most disingenuous interpretations of his words. And there is no willful ingorance here. I know the things said by randos on r/thedonald can often be pretty horrendous. There are horrendous randos everywhere. Just look at r/politics. The things people in power have said about Trump and his supporters is also quite terrible, and the fact that they have power makes it worse. The ignorance is yours.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
itronitron 6y ago
Thank you for posting a link to the full text of Trump's speech. Consider this section from the last paragraph... "the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote"
- blueflame7 6y ago
  The didn't. Democrats never break rank. Ever.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago

If he does get charged, it will be a jury that decides, after they hear all the evidence. All we know are what we see in the internet.

ryandrake 6y ago

> I am just explaining the psychology of how people can get swept up in the fervor of crowds. So, “Whoopsie! I accidentally entered the Capitol through that broken window and got peer pressured right into the Senate?”

pixl97 6y ago
"Oops, I may have committed some light treason"
8note 6y ago
People do get dumb in mobs, so that could be true
- redisman 6y ago
  It’s pretty wild that statements like “people do dumb things in mobs” are controversial depending on the prism people are looking through
- jusssi 6y ago
  Alcohol makes some people aggressive. The right solution, for those people, is to not drink alcohol. And "but I was drunk" is not considered a valid defense. Maybe the same standard should be applied to people who decide to join a mob, if we're assuming they're not dumb already before joining one.

rodgerd 6y ago

Ah, yes, the spontaneously generated pipe bombs, firearms, merchandise (t-shirts, caps, you name it), messages organising weeks before, zip-cuffs, hangman's platform, and spears.

eganist 6y ago
It'd be an interesting twist in the simulation if the entities were materialized/determined only when the chest^H^H^H^H^H^H truck was examined.