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This seems kind of naive for many industries at the moment as for the most part it would translate to "Don't do cost-effective manufacturing".

colechristensen 6y ago
China isn’t the cheapest manufacturer any more and there are large costs in offshoring manufacturing anyway (essentially having to overmanage to get the desired outcome) so there is an increasing trend of returning manufacturing jobs to rich countries. But also yes, directly, don’t let a difference in cost compromise your moral compass. Slavery is also cost effective, would you argue for that too? (of course that is indeed one of the issues of doing business in china too)
- Roritharr 6y ago
  If you are a large multinational you can have those considerations, but as a startup you have to take the ecosystem as it currently is, which means most of the manufacturing know-how is currently based in China. There are simply lots of processes which can only be bought for prototype quantities in most western countries. If you try to scale those it's just outside of your budget to do anything but go to China with it.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    So as a startup you are beyond moral considerations because you’re a startup? At what point do you have to do the right thing as a startup? Slavery? Child labor? Genocide? Clearly there must be a line where morality becomes more important than money, where exactly should that line be and how should it be different for small companies and big ones? New ones and old ones? Or are morals just important when they no longer compete with dollars?
peteretep 6y ago
Perhaps another formulation of this is “consider _all_ costs associated with doing business in China rather than the short-term unit price”.
- free_rms 6y ago
  As a matter of national policy, you're absolutely right and maybe this whole "outsource our entire manufacturing chain" thing was a mistake. As a matter of ethics.. they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming and have invaded zero countries in the last 30 years.
  - tfehring 6y ago
    There are at least a million people, and likely several million, in Chinese concentration camps right now, so it's clear that they don't have to cross international borders to commit human rights violations. The lifting of millions of Chinese out of poverty has been one of the greatest humanitarian achievements in human history and shouldn't be understated, but it doesn't justify the human rights violations that are being committed by the CCP today.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      There are three million graves in the Middle East over the lies and murder of the US Government, yet no one is calling for an embargo of the United States. This concern is a mirage of a geostrategic struggle.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming We can never know for sure, but my belief is that if the other side had won the civil war, this would have happened several decades sooner
    - free_rms 6y ago
      Awfully long to hold a grudge? We in the west could have stopped screwing them over a couple centuries earlier as well. Might have avoided the whole civil war ever happening. EDIT: Was being light-hearted about the "holding a grudge". Been a while since Mao is all.

colechristensen 6y ago

China isn’t the cheapest manufacturer any more and there are large costs in offshoring manufacturing anyway (essentially having to overmanage to get the desired outcome) so there is an increasing trend of returning manufacturing jobs to rich countries. But also yes, directly, don’t let a difference in cost compromise your moral compass. Slavery is also cost effective, would you argue for that too? (of course that is indeed one of the issues of doing business in china too)

Roritharr 6y ago
If you are a large multinational you can have those considerations, but as a startup you have to take the ecosystem as it currently is, which means most of the manufacturing know-how is currently based in China. There are simply lots of processes which can only be bought for prototype quantities in most western countries. If you try to scale those it's just outside of your budget to do anything but go to China with it.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  So as a startup you are beyond moral considerations because you’re a startup? At what point do you have to do the right thing as a startup? Slavery? Child labor? Genocide? Clearly there must be a line where morality becomes more important than money, where exactly should that line be and how should it be different for small companies and big ones? New ones and old ones? Or are morals just important when they no longer compete with dollars?

peteretep 6y ago

Perhaps another formulation of this is “consider _all_ costs associated with doing business in China rather than the short-term unit price”.

free_rms 6y ago
As a matter of national policy, you're absolutely right and maybe this whole "outsource our entire manufacturing chain" thing was a mistake. As a matter of ethics.. they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming and have invaded zero countries in the last 30 years.
- tfehring 6y ago
  There are at least a million people, and likely several million, in Chinese concentration camps right now, so it's clear that they don't have to cross international borders to commit human rights violations. The lifting of millions of Chinese out of poverty has been one of the greatest humanitarian achievements in human history and shouldn't be understated, but it doesn't justify the human rights violations that are being committed by the CCP today.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    There are three million graves in the Middle East over the lies and murder of the US Government, yet no one is calling for an embargo of the United States. This concern is a mirage of a geostrategic struggle.
- peteretep 6y ago
  > they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming We can never know for sure, but my belief is that if the other side had won the civil war, this would have happened several decades sooner
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Awfully long to hold a grudge? We in the west could have stopped screwing them over a couple centuries earlier as well. Might have avoided the whole civil war ever happening. EDIT: Was being light-hearted about the "holding a grudge". Been a while since Mao is all.