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All economic activity in a nation is going to benefit the government in some way. Is this a call for full cuba-level embargo of the nation of China, or what he

All economic activity in a nation is going to benefit the government in some way. Is this a call for full cuba-level embargo of the nation of China, or what here?

colechristensen 6y ago
Don’t put yourself or your company in a position where China would influence your ability to make the right decision. That doesn’t require an embargo, but some companies maybe are best served by abstinence.
- Roritharr 6y ago
  This seems kind of naive for many industries at the moment as for the most part it would translate to "Don't do cost-effective manufacturing".
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    China isn’t the cheapest manufacturer any more and there are large costs in offshoring manufacturing anyway (essentially having to overmanage to get the desired outcome) so there is an increasing trend of returning manufacturing jobs to rich countries. But also yes, directly, don’t let a difference in cost compromise your moral compass. Slavery is also cost effective, would you argue for that too? (of course that is indeed one of the issues of doing business in china too)
    - Roritharr 6y ago
      If you are a large multinational you can have those considerations, but as a startup you have to take the ecosystem as it currently is, which means most of the manufacturing know-how is currently based in China. There are simply lots of processes which can only be bought for prototype quantities in most western countries. If you try to scale those it's just outside of your budget to do anything but go to China with it.
      - colechristensen 6y ago
        So as a startup you are beyond moral considerations because you’re a startup? At what point do you have to do the right thing as a startup? Slavery? Child labor? Genocide? Clearly there must be a line where morality becomes more important than money, where exactly should that line be and how should it be different for small companies and big ones? New ones and old ones? Or are morals just important when they no longer compete with dollars?
  - peteretep 6y ago
    Perhaps another formulation of this is “consider _all_ costs associated with doing business in China rather than the short-term unit price”.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      As a matter of national policy, you're absolutely right and maybe this whole "outsource our entire manufacturing chain" thing was a mistake. As a matter of ethics.. they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming and have invaded zero countries in the last 30 years.
      - tfehring 6y ago
        There are at least a million people, and likely several million, in Chinese concentration camps right now, so it's clear that they don't have to cross international borders to commit human rights violations. The lifting of millions of Chinese out of poverty has been one of the greatest humanitarian achievements in human history and shouldn't be understated, but it doesn't justify the human rights violations that are being committed by the CCP today.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        There are three million graves in the Middle East over the lies and murder of the US Government, yet no one is calling for an embargo of the United States. This concern is a mirage of a geostrategic struggle.
      - peteretep 6y ago
        > they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming We can never know for sure, but my belief is that if the other side had won the civil war, this would have happened several decades sooner
- thelittleone 6y ago
  The same goes for nations also. Ethical concerns are too often ignored in favor of "economic growth" but at the cost of integrity (or as you put it, ability to make the right decisions). As an Australian it's been interesting to observe the cause and effect of our leaders celebrating exports and the sale of national assets to China. The long term effects of these deals are only just starting to be felt.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  How would you go about that? Chinese money is everywhere, including US government debt. Send that supplement check back?
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    If you owe the bank $100,000 the bank owns you; if you owe the bank (er, china) $1,000,000,000,000, you own the bank.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      That is practical point of view. I replied to moralistic one

All economic activity in a nation is going to benefit the government in some way. Is this a call for full cuba-level embargo of the nation of China, or what here?

colechristensen 6y ago

Don’t put yourself or your company in a position where China would influence your ability to make the right decision. That doesn’t require an embargo, but some companies maybe are best served by abstinence.

Roritharr 6y ago
This seems kind of naive for many industries at the moment as for the most part it would translate to "Don't do cost-effective manufacturing".
- colechristensen 6y ago
  China isn’t the cheapest manufacturer any more and there are large costs in offshoring manufacturing anyway (essentially having to overmanage to get the desired outcome) so there is an increasing trend of returning manufacturing jobs to rich countries. But also yes, directly, don’t let a difference in cost compromise your moral compass. Slavery is also cost effective, would you argue for that too? (of course that is indeed one of the issues of doing business in china too)
  - Roritharr 6y ago
    If you are a large multinational you can have those considerations, but as a startup you have to take the ecosystem as it currently is, which means most of the manufacturing know-how is currently based in China. There are simply lots of processes which can only be bought for prototype quantities in most western countries. If you try to scale those it's just outside of your budget to do anything but go to China with it.
    - colechristensen 6y ago
      So as a startup you are beyond moral considerations because you’re a startup? At what point do you have to do the right thing as a startup? Slavery? Child labor? Genocide? Clearly there must be a line where morality becomes more important than money, where exactly should that line be and how should it be different for small companies and big ones? New ones and old ones? Or are morals just important when they no longer compete with dollars?
- peteretep 6y ago
  Perhaps another formulation of this is “consider _all_ costs associated with doing business in China rather than the short-term unit price”.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    As a matter of national policy, you're absolutely right and maybe this whole "outsource our entire manufacturing chain" thing was a mistake. As a matter of ethics.. they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming and have invaded zero countries in the last 30 years.
    - tfehring 6y ago
      There are at least a million people, and likely several million, in Chinese concentration camps right now, so it's clear that they don't have to cross international borders to commit human rights violations. The lifting of millions of Chinese out of poverty has been one of the greatest humanitarian achievements in human history and shouldn't be understated, but it doesn't justify the human rights violations that are being committed by the CCP today.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        There are three million graves in the Middle East over the lies and murder of the US Government, yet no one is calling for an embargo of the United States. This concern is a mirage of a geostrategic struggle.
    - peteretep 6y ago
      > they've lifted a billion humans out of back-breaking subsistence farming We can never know for sure, but my belief is that if the other side had won the civil war, this would have happened several decades sooner
thelittleone 6y ago
The same goes for nations also. Ethical concerns are too often ignored in favor of "economic growth" but at the cost of integrity (or as you put it, ability to make the right decisions). As an Australian it's been interesting to observe the cause and effect of our leaders celebrating exports and the sale of national assets to China. The long term effects of these deals are only just starting to be felt.
AzzieElbab 6y ago
How would you go about that? Chinese money is everywhere, including US government debt. Send that supplement check back?
- colechristensen 6y ago
  If you owe the bank $100,000 the bank owns you; if you owe the bank (er, china) $1,000,000,000,000, you own the bank.
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    That is practical point of view. I replied to moralistic one