7 ms·

One of the more concerning tactics I've witnessed over the past few years that Trump and other parts of the GOP rhetoric machine were using in service of lying

by Rapzid 6y ago

One of the more concerning tactics I've witnessed over the past few years that Trump and other parts of the GOP rhetoric machine were using in service of lying to people.. Convincing people who don't understand very well their rights, democracy, civics, and etc that their RIGHTS were being infringed; by others exercising their rights. "Stop The Steal" is just another flavor of conflating 1st amendment "freedom of speech" protections with a "RIGHT" to be on some platform or another, or to talk at some venue or another.

TearsInTheRain 6y ago
> Convincing people who don't understand very well their rights, democracy, civics, and etc that their RIGHTS were being infringed; by others exercising their rights. I dont think we need to infantilize Trump supporters. They are capable of evaluating claims made by the GOP.
- baumandm 6y ago
  Unfortunately I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that a large percentage of people across the political spectrum lack basic civics knowledge.
  - mjevans 6y ago
    We make people take a test to drive. People should have to take a Civics based test to vote. If someone wants to vote but fails the civics test, they should then immediately qualify for a minimum living wage job to go back to public education and get paid for getting at least an 80% grade at whatever grade level they're working at (obviously with either enrollment at lower grade levels, classification as disability if unable to learn or medically impaired, and similar options also on the table). The goal would be to make sure that an EDUCATED and Civically Informed public, able to use Critical Thinking skills is the baseline expectation for a functional society in which the general people have the civic duty to be involved in the processes of self government and representative selection for representative democracies.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - monocasa 6y ago
      We don't have tests because they were specifically used to disenfranchise large classes of people in the past.
      - davmar 6y ago
        precisely. literacy tests are banned by the civil rights act.
      - hammock 6y ago
        Ironic that you have to point this out to someone who is arguing that people lack civics knowledge..
        zo1 6y ago
        Exactly... If anything, this "test" will disenfranchise the claimed "uninformed" "Trump supporters".
    - awb 6y ago
      > People should have to take a Civics based test to vote The problem is what grade level? 1st grade: What country do you live in? 3rd grade: Name all 3 branches of government 6th grade: How is a bill made into a law? 9th grade: Who are your elected representatives and what are their positions on issues A, B & C? ... PhD: Compare and contrast Hamilton and Jefferson's viewpoints on the Constitutional convention, banking and personal liberties and how they shaped and influenced US policy in the last 40 years (20 pages or less) Countries have tried an aristocratic, ruling class and it doesn't work because it disenfranchises the masses and leads to a populist revolt. These tests were also used in the US to disenfranchise minorities who couldn't read or afford to go to school. Plus, I had a friend in college who was one of the 537 deciding votes in Broward county in 2000 who voted for Bush because "Gore was boring". He was smart and would have easily passed any civics test you gave him, but he voted based on personality rather than any specific issue.
- na85 6y ago
  >They are capable of evaluating claims made by the GOP. Do you really believe that?
- standardUser 6y ago
  We've seen poll after poll for a couple decades showing that Fox News viewers have a weaker grip on the facts than other news consumers. And we've seen that the conservative movement in the US will cling to ideas that aren't embraced by any other major parties in the Western world. And that most Republicans will accept a lie like "the steal" with no evidence, and even despite ample evidence to the contrary. I don't want to infantilize anyone, but I'm not going to pretend that most Trump supporters are fully understanding the facts but simply coming to different conclusions. They are clearly and proudly ignoring the facts.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > We've seen poll after poll for a couple decades showing that Fox News viewers have a weaker grip on the facts than other news consumers It's even worse than that: At least one analysis has shown that Fox News viewers were worse informed than people who don't consume any news at all. IOW, Fox (and to a lesser extent, MSNBC) has negative information value.
  - throwitaway1235 6y ago
    + 1 trillion reddit gold.
  - Taurenking 6y ago
    Ah, yes, the famous polls which predicted a 99/1 landslide win for Hillary
    - croon 6y ago
      A dice has an 83% chance of not landing on 6. It still, at times, lands on 6.
- lsiebert 6y ago
  And yet they believe outright lies, lies repeated by GOP leaders, journalists etc, who at the same time denigrated the main stream media and scientists, eroding trust in neutral institutions. Evaluations are hard to make when all the sources you trust are lying to you.
  - hanselot 6y ago
    Neutral is a very interesting word. I consider myself centrist, yet my views are considered by others to be "far right" and fringe, simply because I refuse to be told what to think by the US Left's propaganda machine. So go figure. When even centrists are disenfranchised by your rhetoric, why would you feel safe, wherever you consider yourself to be on the political spectrum?
  - cmurf 6y ago
    In 1861 the Senate expelled 10 senators for being involved in a conspiracy against the United States. And 7 years later, the 14th amendment was passed. The lies for profit charlatans basically get away with it. But I do not think members of Congress should. Every single one of those who voted on false pretenses to overturn an election last week, should be expelled. That is the fraud that has happened in this election.
    - lliamander 6y ago
      Democrats have challenged electors for dumb reasons before. It's their right. Get a grip.
      - cmurf 6y ago
        Those challenges weren't based on lies and charlatanry. Voter suppression is real and significant.
        lliamander 6y ago
        Are you prepared to offer the level of evidence to support your position that you expect of Trump supporters in proving their claims of voter fraud?

by Rapzid 6y ago

TearsInTheRain 6y ago

> Convincing people who don't understand very well their rights, democracy, civics, and etc that their RIGHTS were being infringed; by others exercising their rights. I dont think we need to infantilize Trump supporters. They are capable of evaluating claims made by the GOP.

baumandm 6y ago
Unfortunately I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that a large percentage of people across the political spectrum lack basic civics knowledge.
- mjevans 6y ago
  We make people take a test to drive. People should have to take a Civics based test to vote. If someone wants to vote but fails the civics test, they should then immediately qualify for a minimum living wage job to go back to public education and get paid for getting at least an 80% grade at whatever grade level they're working at (obviously with either enrollment at lower grade levels, classification as disability if unable to learn or medically impaired, and similar options also on the table). The goal would be to make sure that an EDUCATED and Civically Informed public, able to use Critical Thinking skills is the baseline expectation for a functional society in which the general people have the civic duty to be involved in the processes of self government and representative selection for representative democracies.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - monocasa 6y ago
    We don't have tests because they were specifically used to disenfranchise large classes of people in the past.
    - davmar 6y ago
      precisely. literacy tests are banned by the civil rights act.
    - hammock 6y ago
      Ironic that you have to point this out to someone who is arguing that people lack civics knowledge..
      - zo1 6y ago
        Exactly... If anything, this "test" will disenfranchise the claimed "uninformed" "Trump supporters".
  - awb 6y ago
    > People should have to take a Civics based test to vote The problem is what grade level? 1st grade: What country do you live in? 3rd grade: Name all 3 branches of government 6th grade: How is a bill made into a law? 9th grade: Who are your elected representatives and what are their positions on issues A, B & C? ... PhD: Compare and contrast Hamilton and Jefferson's viewpoints on the Constitutional convention, banking and personal liberties and how they shaped and influenced US policy in the last 40 years (20 pages or less) Countries have tried an aristocratic, ruling class and it doesn't work because it disenfranchises the masses and leads to a populist revolt. These tests were also used in the US to disenfranchise minorities who couldn't read or afford to go to school. Plus, I had a friend in college who was one of the 537 deciding votes in Broward county in 2000 who voted for Bush because "Gore was boring". He was smart and would have easily passed any civics test you gave him, but he voted based on personality rather than any specific issue.
na85 6y ago
>They are capable of evaluating claims made by the GOP. Do you really believe that?
standardUser 6y ago
We've seen poll after poll for a couple decades showing that Fox News viewers have a weaker grip on the facts than other news consumers. And we've seen that the conservative movement in the US will cling to ideas that aren't embraced by any other major parties in the Western world. And that most Republicans will accept a lie like "the steal" with no evidence, and even despite ample evidence to the contrary. I don't want to infantilize anyone, but I'm not going to pretend that most Trump supporters are fully understanding the facts but simply coming to different conclusions. They are clearly and proudly ignoring the facts.
- webmaven 6y ago
  > We've seen poll after poll for a couple decades showing that Fox News viewers have a weaker grip on the facts than other news consumers It's even worse than that: At least one analysis has shown that Fox News viewers were worse informed than people who don't consume any news at all. IOW, Fox (and to a lesser extent, MSNBC) has negative information value.
- throwitaway1235 6y ago
  + 1 trillion reddit gold.
- Taurenking 6y ago
  Ah, yes, the famous polls which predicted a 99/1 landslide win for Hillary
  - croon 6y ago
    A dice has an 83% chance of not landing on 6. It still, at times, lands on 6.
lsiebert 6y ago
And yet they believe outright lies, lies repeated by GOP leaders, journalists etc, who at the same time denigrated the main stream media and scientists, eroding trust in neutral institutions. Evaluations are hard to make when all the sources you trust are lying to you.
- hanselot 6y ago
  Neutral is a very interesting word. I consider myself centrist, yet my views are considered by others to be "far right" and fringe, simply because I refuse to be told what to think by the US Left's propaganda machine. So go figure. When even centrists are disenfranchised by your rhetoric, why would you feel safe, wherever you consider yourself to be on the political spectrum?
- cmurf 6y ago
  In 1861 the Senate expelled 10 senators for being involved in a conspiracy against the United States. And 7 years later, the 14th amendment was passed. The lies for profit charlatans basically get away with it. But I do not think members of Congress should. Every single one of those who voted on false pretenses to overturn an election last week, should be expelled. That is the fraud that has happened in this election.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    Democrats have challenged electors for dumb reasons before. It's their right. Get a grip.
    - cmurf 6y ago
      Those challenges weren't based on lies and charlatanry. Voter suppression is real and significant.
      - lliamander 6y ago
        Are you prepared to offer the level of evidence to support your position that you expect of Trump supporters in proving their claims of voter fraud?