5 ms·

>Strawman. I said no such thing. You say Google and Mozilla are moving to fast, MS is doing things right. So...? > Ah, an interesting perspective of your own,

>Strawman. I said no such thing. You say Google and Mozilla are moving to fast, MS is doing things right. So...? > Ah, an interesting perspective of your own, I see. :-) Yes, I think people should upgrade their browsers more than once every 4 or 5 years. Call me crazy. > The pace of technology development matters far more to those of us writing web pages than to users, who typically only notice what browser they are using when something doesn't work, and even then only if it did work in some other context. When I spend an extra five days getting a project right in IE, or writing a totally separate version for this browser, yes, users are being deprived of something useful I could have done instead. When IE's quirks and flaws cause my page to not work, users notice something didn't work. > Why? Because I have a different view to your own? No, because you said IE 6 and IE 7 are essentially trouble free. > I think this is where we basically disagree. You seem to want to play with shiny new toys. Yes, I don't want to have to cobble together a separate version for some browser from 8 years ago. Again, IE is the only one that works anything like this. >With due respect, what your web developer friends like isn't really the point. Thanks, but actually it is since we're discussing my opinion and the opinions of developers. I thought. > I care about users. So do I, I'd like for them to have my software in a more performant, more reliable form, more quickly. > Are those users getting a significantly better experience using other browsers with rapid development cycles rather than IE? I have already listed several fundamental bugs that have resulted from the recent development processes at Google and Mozilla in my earlier post. Those bugs have in several cases visibly affected my or my clients' users. You seem to have no concept of how the long standing, never fixed bugs and design flaws in IE 6, 7 and 8 have affected users. > For all its ills, the reason IE6 lasted so long was that Microsoft never retrospectively screwed things up on that scale. No, IE 6 lasted that long because MS didn't update it for six years, and then tied the new version to a widely disliked OS. Developers were forced to bend over backwards to support IE 6 due to it's continuing market share. MS never 'messed it up' because they never even tried to improve IE 6 between 2001 and 2006. > I have yet to receive a single request from any client that would benefit from them, nor to my knowledge encountered any web site I use myself as a geek that benefits from them, with the possible exceptions of HTML5 video and <canvas>. So, none of your clients expect high performance JavaScript. IE 9 is still remarkably slow compared to every other browsers. I've had a hard time finding IE enthusiasts other than corporations, neophytes and MS developers. It seems rather apparent you fall into the latter category.

Silhouette 15y ago
I'm sorry, but you're still just producing strawmen. I don't like coding for IE, I just don't like coding for fast-moving targets that keep introducing bugs either. Also, you seem to have an awful lot of serious problems with older versions of IE on your projects. Spending days getting a project right in IE? Writing a totally separate version? Long-standing bugs affecting your users in visible ways? User-visible problems with JS performance in IE9? Some of those were certainly problems with IE6 and to some extent with IE7, but if you're really still suffering those problems with IE8 -- the topic of this conversation, and the latest version supported on all popular Windows versions -- then I have to think that either you're in a remarkably specialised field or you're doing something wrong.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- code_duck 15y ago
  I hope I'm not getting carried away in this discussion, given my passion for the topic and disappointment in IE. Apologies if so. I suppose you see cutting edge as frivolity, but yes, IE is entirely incapable of the more advanced and interesting things that Firefox and Chrome can now do. Hence, one might write a degraded version for IE, or a separate version in Flash. The thing is, all other browsers are very good about getting their users to upgrade, so I don't really think about a degraded Firefox, Safari, Opera or Chrome version. S I've coded myself into corners testing with Firefox and Safari, then had to redo it a lot for IE to work. Maybe it's just mainly painful memories from when I was starting out. About 4% of our users are using IE9 currently, so I haven't heard much user feedback about the JScript speed. I do hope everyone upgrades soon, of course. I don't work for an enterprise, and I am the only full time developer in my (micro) company. With everything I have to do, testing in 5-6 versions of IE has been a big problem for me in the past. Given that my experience does not seem to be isolated or anomalous, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.
- code_duck 15y ago
  I hope I'm not getting carried away in this discussion, given my passion for the topic and disappointment in IE. Apologies if so. I suppose you see cutting edge as frivolity, but yes, IE is entirely incapable of the more advanced and interesting things that Firefox and Chrome can now do. Hence, one might write a degraded version for IE, or a separate version in Flash. The thing is, all other browsers are very good about getting their users to upgrade, so I don't really think about a degraded Firefox, Safari, Opera or Chrome version. S I've coded myself into corners testing with Firefox and Safari, then had to redo it a lot for IE to work. Maybe it's just mainly painful memories from when I was starting out. About 4% of our users are using IE9 currently, so I haven't heard much user feedback about the JScript speed. I do hope everyone upgrades soon, of course. I don't work for an enterprise, and I am the only full time developer in my (micro) company. With everything I have to do, testing in 5-6 versions of IE has been a big problem for me in the past. Given that my experience does not seem to be isolated or anomalous, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.

Silhouette 15y ago

I'm sorry, but you're still just producing strawmen. I don't like coding for IE, I just don't like coding for fast-moving targets that keep introducing bugs either. Also, you seem to have an awful lot of serious problems with older versions of IE on your projects. Spending days getting a project right in IE? Writing a totally separate version? Long-standing bugs affecting your users in visible ways? User-visible problems with JS performance in IE9? Some of those were certainly problems with IE6 and to some extent with IE7, but if you're really still suffering those problems with IE8 -- the topic of this conversation, and the latest version supported on all popular Windows versions -- then I have to think that either you're in a remarkably specialised field or you're doing something wrong.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
code_duck 15y ago
I hope I'm not getting carried away in this discussion, given my passion for the topic and disappointment in IE. Apologies if so. I suppose you see cutting edge as frivolity, but yes, IE is entirely incapable of the more advanced and interesting things that Firefox and Chrome can now do. Hence, one might write a degraded version for IE, or a separate version in Flash. The thing is, all other browsers are very good about getting their users to upgrade, so I don't really think about a degraded Firefox, Safari, Opera or Chrome version. S I've coded myself into corners testing with Firefox and Safari, then had to redo it a lot for IE to work. Maybe it's just mainly painful memories from when I was starting out. About 4% of our users are using IE9 currently, so I haven't heard much user feedback about the JScript speed. I do hope everyone upgrades soon, of course. I don't work for an enterprise, and I am the only full time developer in my (micro) company. With everything I have to do, testing in 5-6 versions of IE has been a big problem for me in the past. Given that my experience does not seem to be isolated or anomalous, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.
code_duck 15y ago
I hope I'm not getting carried away in this discussion, given my passion for the topic and disappointment in IE. Apologies if so. I suppose you see cutting edge as frivolity, but yes, IE is entirely incapable of the more advanced and interesting things that Firefox and Chrome can now do. Hence, one might write a degraded version for IE, or a separate version in Flash. The thing is, all other browsers are very good about getting their users to upgrade, so I don't really think about a degraded Firefox, Safari, Opera or Chrome version. S I've coded myself into corners testing with Firefox and Safari, then had to redo it a lot for IE to work. Maybe it's just mainly painful memories from when I was starting out. About 4% of our users are using IE9 currently, so I haven't heard much user feedback about the JScript speed. I do hope everyone upgrades soon, of course. I don't work for an enterprise, and I am the only full time developer in my (micro) company. With everything I have to do, testing in 5-6 versions of IE has been a big problem for me in the past. Given that my experience does not seem to be isolated or anomalous, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.