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> be accused of being a woman-hater This only seems fair, as your opening salvo began with accusing anyone who disagrees with you a man-hater. I seriously dou

by crux_ 15y ago

> be accused of being a woman-hater This only seems fair, as your opening salvo began with accusing anyone who disagrees with you a man-hater. I seriously doubt that a blog post was the "first thought" in any of the many prominent incidents of this nature. It's a very serious, very personal topic, after all; and I've seen no evidence whatsoever that putting it up on the internet for all to see was a 'first thought'. What you really mean in your suggestion is that these women should never make a blog post. One compelling reason for publicity is that these problems go beyond individual occurrences and permeate the startup/IT culture. No number of quiet police reports or settled lawsuits will bring about changes to that culture, but a glaring spotlight may have an effect.

jsprinkles 15y ago
I did not accuse those who disagree with me of misandry. I said the misandry will drown out objective discussion of the topic. You are kidding yourself if you think blog posts like this change things. As long as men have had penises things like this have happened. It will always happen. Ranting about it on a blog will do nothing except ostracize and jeopardize the life of the accused. There is nothing special about IT when it comes to gender affairs except a bunch of people who think it is okay to publicly ruin lives and justify it under the guise of "defending a profession from sexual impropriety".
- crux_ 15y ago
  > You are kidding yourself if you think blog posts like this change things. As long as men have had penises things like this have happened. It will always happen. A response, in several parts: 1) So men are mere unthinking animals, victim to their penis and incapable of higher reason, and thus innocent? Who's the misandrist here, again? 2) Perhaps you also believe that skin-color based slavery is also inevitable, natural and inescapable. After all, it's been happening for all of history! 3) IT (and more so, startups) are significantly and noticeably more sexist than many other professions. Also, it's my profession, and I'd like it to be one I can be proud of. 4) Really? "Jeopardise the life of the accused"? The only death threats I recall from recent situations were made against the woman (accuser). 5) Things have changed. For one, others who have experienced similar harassment have another data point to know that they're not alone. For another, those of us who aren't as tolerant of jackassery as you are have been reminded of how far we have to go.
  - jsprinkles 15y ago
    You're so full of yourself it's amazing. 1) I did not fucking waive blame. I acknowledged that it happens. 2) Sure. Dilute my argument by bringing in slavery. Good call. I am totally on your side now. 3) If you want to believe that. I have not come across a profession yet where this stuff does not happen in spades. 4) By life I meant work opportunities and reputation. 5) Things have not changed. At all.
    - crux_ 15y ago
      > You're so full of yourself it's amazing. Glad to see that you're easily impressed! WRT, 1 and 2), your statement was that assault and harassment are inevitable and unavoidable aspects of human nature. Funny enough that is the exact same argument, word for word, that was used by those in favour of segregation (and before that, slavery). How am I diluting anything by pointing out the parallels? Secondly, do you really think I want you on my side? My goal is to communicate exactly how strongly I disagree with you, not for you to be my pal. Finally: If you truly believe nothing will change, then why are you putting in so much effort to defend the status quo?
      - jsprinkles 15y ago
        Inevitable and unavoidable has nothing to do with innocence. Which again I did not assert for those that do this. Parking your car in the ghetto with the windows down will inevitably lead to your stereo or car getting stolen. That absolutely does not imply that theft is OK. You want me to be saying that so it is easier to deflect my argument. As for the slavery you are intentionally bringing in a more hot-button issue to divert attention from the topic at hand. It's called a red herring.
        KuraFire 15y ago
        jsprinkles, you are such a despicable human being that I can genuinely say my life was a happier life before I found out that you existed. Good grief you disgust me. I know this comment is not contributing in any way, and will invariably get downvoted into oblivion given the general misogyny rampant among many of the HN regulars, but I just could not let that go unsaid. THAT’S how much your behavior in this thread has bothered me. (btw, I'm a white male) Update (as I cannot reply a level deeper than jsprinkles reply to this, it seems): the “amount” by which my life is a less happy place is about the amount of sound the world’s tiniest violin produces. But the knowledge is there now, and cannot be forgotten.
Hawramani 15y ago
It doesn't seem fair. We are intelligent entities who can isolate the different points he makes and decide for ourselves whether they make sense or not. these problems go beyond individual occurrences and permeate the startup/IT culture Can you provide some dependable data to support this? My experience is that most IT people are terrified of being considered sexist and would go out of their way to be fair and just to women. In fact, my experience is that women get much better treatment in IT than men any day. The few cases where this does not happen are exceptions, not the rule, and this shows the anti-male perspective of people like you, who carelessly accuse the entire IT culture of being sexist when the truth is that our culture couldn't be farther from that.
- jsprinkles 15y ago
  What I walk away from discussions like this with is: Everybody in IT is like this so my behavior is justifiable. That's the only explanation that makes sense for the sweeping generalizations of men in computing.

by crux_ 15y ago

jsprinkles 15y ago

I did not accuse those who disagree with me of misandry. I said the misandry will drown out objective discussion of the topic. You are kidding yourself if you think blog posts like this change things. As long as men have had penises things like this have happened. It will always happen. Ranting about it on a blog will do nothing except ostracize and jeopardize the life of the accused. There is nothing special about IT when it comes to gender affairs except a bunch of people who think it is okay to publicly ruin lives and justify it under the guise of "defending a profession from sexual impropriety".

crux_ 15y ago
> You are kidding yourself if you think blog posts like this change things. As long as men have had penises things like this have happened. It will always happen. A response, in several parts: 1) So men are mere unthinking animals, victim to their penis and incapable of higher reason, and thus innocent? Who's the misandrist here, again? 2) Perhaps you also believe that skin-color based slavery is also inevitable, natural and inescapable. After all, it's been happening for all of history! 3) IT (and more so, startups) are significantly and noticeably more sexist than many other professions. Also, it's my profession, and I'd like it to be one I can be proud of. 4) Really? "Jeopardise the life of the accused"? The only death threats I recall from recent situations were made against the woman (accuser). 5) Things have changed. For one, others who have experienced similar harassment have another data point to know that they're not alone. For another, those of us who aren't as tolerant of jackassery as you are have been reminded of how far we have to go.
- jsprinkles 15y ago
  You're so full of yourself it's amazing. 1) I did not fucking waive blame. I acknowledged that it happens. 2) Sure. Dilute my argument by bringing in slavery. Good call. I am totally on your side now. 3) If you want to believe that. I have not come across a profession yet where this stuff does not happen in spades. 4) By life I meant work opportunities and reputation. 5) Things have not changed. At all.
  - crux_ 15y ago
    > You're so full of yourself it's amazing. Glad to see that you're easily impressed! WRT, 1 and 2), your statement was that assault and harassment are inevitable and unavoidable aspects of human nature. Funny enough that is the exact same argument, word for word, that was used by those in favour of segregation (and before that, slavery). How am I diluting anything by pointing out the parallels? Secondly, do you really think I want you on my side? My goal is to communicate exactly how strongly I disagree with you, not for you to be my pal. Finally: If you truly believe nothing will change, then why are you putting in so much effort to defend the status quo?
    - jsprinkles 15y ago
      Inevitable and unavoidable has nothing to do with innocence. Which again I did not assert for those that do this. Parking your car in the ghetto with the windows down will inevitably lead to your stereo or car getting stolen. That absolutely does not imply that theft is OK. You want me to be saying that so it is easier to deflect my argument. As for the slavery you are intentionally bringing in a more hot-button issue to divert attention from the topic at hand. It's called a red herring.
      - KuraFire 15y ago
        jsprinkles, you are such a despicable human being that I can genuinely say my life was a happier life before I found out that you existed. Good grief you disgust me. I know this comment is not contributing in any way, and will invariably get downvoted into oblivion given the general misogyny rampant among many of the HN regulars, but I just could not let that go unsaid. THAT’S how much your behavior in this thread has bothered me. (btw, I'm a white male) Update (as I cannot reply a level deeper than jsprinkles reply to this, it seems): the “amount” by which my life is a less happy place is about the amount of sound the world’s tiniest violin produces. But the knowledge is there now, and cannot be forgotten.

Hawramani 15y ago

It doesn't seem fair. We are intelligent entities who can isolate the different points he makes and decide for ourselves whether they make sense or not. these problems go beyond individual occurrences and permeate the startup/IT culture Can you provide some dependable data to support this? My experience is that most IT people are terrified of being considered sexist and would go out of their way to be fair and just to women. In fact, my experience is that women get much better treatment in IT than men any day. The few cases where this does not happen are exceptions, not the rule, and this shows the anti-male perspective of people like you, who carelessly accuse the entire IT culture of being sexist when the truth is that our culture couldn't be farther from that.

jsprinkles 15y ago
What I walk away from discussions like this with is: Everybody in IT is like this so my behavior is justifiable. That's the only explanation that makes sense for the sweeping generalizations of men in computing.