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IE 6.0 is the perfect browser for the enterprise or at least the perfect stable platform for enterprise web applications. Chrome updates are released every few

IE 6.0 is the perfect browser for the enterprise or at least the perfect stable platform for enterprise web applications. Chrome updates are released every few days, who is supposed to test if all internal apps still work?

Silhouette 15y ago
I'm sorry you're getting downvoted for that little insight. I won't give any contractual undertaking to a client that anything I produce will run on Chrome when delivered, because it's a moving target and for some projects it updates faster than a complete test cycle. If Mozilla are now switching to crazy-fast auto-updates as well, then I'm going to have to start excluding Firefox too. At this rate, IE will be the only browser I will be able to commit to testing on and supporting. If that's not irony...
- evilduck 15y ago
  Oh great, someone to usher in a whole new generation of "This site only supported in Internet Explorer" javascript popups. You already said your clients aren't asking for it and you're not providing it, are Chrome and FF honestly breaking your HTML4 and CSS2, or are you just exaggerating the problem rolling releases cause? Because given the choice between slow as shit browser releases tied to OS updates and anything else, I'll choose the latter because it's less headache.
  - yuhong 15y ago
    >are Chrome and FF honestly breaking your HTML4 and CSS2 I think he is not saying that they are breaking the sites right now, just that occasionally bugs happen in chrome that can break the sites.
  - Silhouette 15y ago
    > You already said your clients aren't asking for it and you're not providing it, are Chrome and FF honestly breaking your HTML4 and CSS2, or are you just exaggerating the problem rolling releases cause? Yes. See the examples in my earlier posts to this discussion, several of which have directly broken my (and many other people's) sites for customers using those browsers. > Because given the choice between slow as shit browser releases tied to OS updates and anything else, I'll choose the latter because it's less headache. False dichotomy.
magicalist 15y ago
actually, about 12 weeks from the time a version enters dev channel to when it enters stable. If that's not enough time, then sure, stick to a slower releasing browser...or hire better devs. No one I've worked with in the last 3 years or so has had significant work keeping their apps from regressing, even as the rate of browser development has been increasing (and certainly no where near as much work as adding IE6 support to new applications). There is a big difference between moving conservatively and not moving at all.
evilduck 15y ago
Selenium? Are you saying you don't have automated testing in an enterprise situation?
- 911-inside_job 15y ago
  I'm saying IMHO 98% of the existing enterprise apps don't have extensive UI tests.
- Silhouette 15y ago
  Automated testing of UIs will only ever cover a relatively limited range of observable behaviour we might care about. Like a lot of unit testing, it's one of those ideas that works really neatly if you're writing a simple database front-end or calculator that deals only with easily parsed/rendered data that is input and output via well-defined, programmable interfaces. Unfortunately, most UIs aren't built with that kind of code. Tools like Selenium aren't going to help you spot that the browser is rendering your page elements with a z-order bug, the canvas/SVG output has an aliasing problem, and your entire page design is getting a flickering scrollbar effect because of a change in the font rendering when the underline for a link appears. (And those are just examples of possible browser bugs, not even counting testing your own code to make sure the UI is rendering properly to a human looking at a screen.)

Silhouette 15y ago

I'm sorry you're getting downvoted for that little insight. I won't give any contractual undertaking to a client that anything I produce will run on Chrome when delivered, because it's a moving target and for some projects it updates faster than a complete test cycle. If Mozilla are now switching to crazy-fast auto-updates as well, then I'm going to have to start excluding Firefox too. At this rate, IE will be the only browser I will be able to commit to testing on and supporting. If that's not irony...

evilduck 15y ago
Oh great, someone to usher in a whole new generation of "This site only supported in Internet Explorer" javascript popups. You already said your clients aren't asking for it and you're not providing it, are Chrome and FF honestly breaking your HTML4 and CSS2, or are you just exaggerating the problem rolling releases cause? Because given the choice between slow as shit browser releases tied to OS updates and anything else, I'll choose the latter because it's less headache.
- yuhong 15y ago
  >are Chrome and FF honestly breaking your HTML4 and CSS2 I think he is not saying that they are breaking the sites right now, just that occasionally bugs happen in chrome that can break the sites.
- Silhouette 15y ago
  > You already said your clients aren't asking for it and you're not providing it, are Chrome and FF honestly breaking your HTML4 and CSS2, or are you just exaggerating the problem rolling releases cause? Yes. See the examples in my earlier posts to this discussion, several of which have directly broken my (and many other people's) sites for customers using those browsers. > Because given the choice between slow as shit browser releases tied to OS updates and anything else, I'll choose the latter because it's less headache. False dichotomy.

magicalist 15y ago

actually, about 12 weeks from the time a version enters dev channel to when it enters stable. If that's not enough time, then sure, stick to a slower releasing browser...or hire better devs. No one I've worked with in the last 3 years or so has had significant work keeping their apps from regressing, even as the rate of browser development has been increasing (and certainly no where near as much work as adding IE6 support to new applications). There is a big difference between moving conservatively and not moving at all.

evilduck 15y ago

Selenium? Are you saying you don't have automated testing in an enterprise situation?

911-inside_job 15y ago
I'm saying IMHO 98% of the existing enterprise apps don't have extensive UI tests.
Silhouette 15y ago
Automated testing of UIs will only ever cover a relatively limited range of observable behaviour we might care about. Like a lot of unit testing, it's one of those ideas that works really neatly if you're writing a simple database front-end or calculator that deals only with easily parsed/rendered data that is input and output via well-defined, programmable interfaces. Unfortunately, most UIs aren't built with that kind of code. Tools like Selenium aren't going to help you spot that the browser is rendering your page elements with a z-order bug, the canvas/SVG output has an aliasing problem, and your entire page design is getting a flickering scrollbar effect because of a change in the font rendering when the underline for a link appears. (And those are just examples of possible browser bugs, not even counting testing your own code to make sure the UI is rendering properly to a human looking at a screen.)