6 ms·

Android/iOS is a duopoly as pervasive as Visa/MasterCard. The ither examples only to a much lesser degree.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
Well, here's the thing. If you agree that the required ability is "use my portable cell-connected computing device to exchange messages with others on their similar devices", then absolutely, I agree that there's a duopoly there (I'm ignoring the possibility to use alternative app stores on Android, because it doesn't seem particularly central). But if you instead think the required ability is "be able to exchange messages with others in more or less realtime", then the duopoly in the portable cell-connected computing device world is of much less importance. For years, because I don't have a cell phone, I was excluded from communications taking place via SMS (there were a few 1-way linux-accessible gateways, but they didn't really change anything there). But I didn't feel that my ability to communicate with others was really particularly impaired, and eventually Telegram (and others came along) that I could use from a desktop, and I was more or less back at parity for "real time communication with others". So whether or not the android/ios duopoly matters in this sort of instance depends on precisely what functionality it is that you think people have a "right" to ...
leetcrew 6y ago
can someone ELI5 why Visa/MasterCard is frequently called a duopoly? as someone who mostly uses my amex and discover cards for day-to-day purchases, I don't really understand this. four major processors (two being their own issuers) seems like a decent amount of competition and diversity of offerings.
- adrian_b 6y ago
  Only Visa/MasterCard matter outside USA.
- techdragon 6y ago
  I’m an Australian and as much as I want an Amex I’d have to change banks to get one, it’s quite rare over here and in a number I’d other countries from what I’ve been told by other people.
  - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
    From what I have seen, most businesses explicitly refuse to accept it since it charges higher fees than visa and MasterCard
- banana_giraffe 6y ago
  Visa and Mastercard combined represent 83% of the number of credit cards in circulation, and 100% of the number of debit cards in circulation. That last one, too, is probably a big part of the reason for the classification. There are more Visa/MC debit cards out there than their are credit cards.
- ksec 6y ago
  1. If you look into Credit Card World Wide, Amex and Discover Cards aren't even viable outside US. 2. If you look at transaction, Amex and Discover may have higher processed transaction value of something like 15% in US. But if you look at transition volume, Visa / Master are 90%+. 3. Both are Credit Card only. Debit Card is where the majority are using for Payment. 3. Consider there are no other electronic / digital payment method that is as ubiquitous as Visa / Master payment network ( ignoring Asia ) and they are the baseline method for e-payment, as well as an extreme high level barrier of Entry. The two are considered as Duopoly.
adrian_b 6y ago
The comparison is not valid. For example my phones use Android, but I do not have a Google account. There exists no legal action that could be done by Google and that could influence anything that I am using my phone for. On the other hand, if Visa and Mastercard would decide to not let me buy something, that would be very bad for me, because I buy almost nothing with cash and most things that interest me could not be bought with cash anyway, because they cannot be found in the shops from my close neighborhood. So the monopoly of Visa and Mastercard really matters and it is very hard to circumvent. That of Apple and Google, much less so.
- glogla 6y ago
  For a common person, Google/Apple cartel is about as much unavoidable as Visa/MC one. You are one of the very few exceptions - just as there are surely exceptional people who can do financial transactions that avoid Visa/MC. Society is not math or computer science where existence of one counterexample makes things invalid. Society is a thing of ratios and percentages. If something is almost impossible for most people, we have to treat it as impossible even though it is possible for some - otherwise bad actors get away with terrible stuff on technicalities. (I for example pay everything with cash or wires which are free and instantaneous in my country - I use card only once in a while to withdraw cash - but it does not invalidate Visa/MC duopoly any more than your special Android that only one in ten thousand people can use either)
  - adrian_b 6y ago
    I am an exception just in the sense that every time when I buy a new phone I reject many times the insistent suggestions of Android to open a Google account and to enable Google Services / Google Play, until Android gives up and bothers me no more. I do not need extra apps from the Google Store, because all the phones that I buy do the things that I need, e.g. voice calls, SMS messages, Internet browsing, photo/video recording, document reading, etc., without needing to install anything else. Things like Google Maps can be accessed in the browser, there is no need for an app. So it is not difficult to avoid Google. To avoid Visa and MC, one would need exceptional connections, because most online shops do not accept other methods of payment and it would not be easy to convince them to create a special method for you. I choose wire transfers whenever I can instead of credit cards. For payments within the country there are no fees, but for payments to other countries, the fees are larger than for credit cards and the vendors are less likely to have wire transfers as an alternative method of payment.

Well, here's the thing. If you agree that the required ability is "use my portable cell-connected computing device to exchange messages with others on their similar devices", then absolutely, I agree that there's a duopoly there (I'm ignoring the possibility to use alternative app stores on Android, because it doesn't seem particularly central). But if you instead think the required ability is "be able to exchange messages with others in more or less realtime", then the duopoly in the portable cell-connected computing device world is of much less importance. For years, because I don't have a cell phone, I was excluded from communications taking place via SMS (there were a few 1-way linux-accessible gateways, but they didn't really change anything there). But I didn't feel that my ability to communicate with others was really particularly impaired, and eventually Telegram (and others came along) that I could use from a desktop, and I was more or less back at parity for "real time communication with others". So whether or not the android/ios duopoly matters in this sort of instance depends on precisely what functionality it is that you think people have a "right" to ...

leetcrew 6y ago

can someone ELI5 why Visa/MasterCard is frequently called a duopoly? as someone who mostly uses my amex and discover cards for day-to-day purchases, I don't really understand this. four major processors (two being their own issuers) seems like a decent amount of competition and diversity of offerings.

adrian_b 6y ago
Only Visa/MasterCard matter outside USA.
techdragon 6y ago
I’m an Australian and as much as I want an Amex I’d have to change banks to get one, it’s quite rare over here and in a number I’d other countries from what I’ve been told by other people.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  From what I have seen, most businesses explicitly refuse to accept it since it charges higher fees than visa and MasterCard
banana_giraffe 6y ago
Visa and Mastercard combined represent 83% of the number of credit cards in circulation, and 100% of the number of debit cards in circulation. That last one, too, is probably a big part of the reason for the classification. There are more Visa/MC debit cards out there than their are credit cards.
ksec 6y ago
1. If you look into Credit Card World Wide, Amex and Discover Cards aren't even viable outside US. 2. If you look at transaction, Amex and Discover may have higher processed transaction value of something like 15% in US. But if you look at transition volume, Visa / Master are 90%+. 3. Both are Credit Card only. Debit Card is where the majority are using for Payment. 3. Consider there are no other electronic / digital payment method that is as ubiquitous as Visa / Master payment network ( ignoring Asia ) and they are the baseline method for e-payment, as well as an extreme high level barrier of Entry. The two are considered as Duopoly.

adrian_b 6y ago

The comparison is not valid. For example my phones use Android, but I do not have a Google account. There exists no legal action that could be done by Google and that could influence anything that I am using my phone for. On the other hand, if Visa and Mastercard would decide to not let me buy something, that would be very bad for me, because I buy almost nothing with cash and most things that interest me could not be bought with cash anyway, because they cannot be found in the shops from my close neighborhood. So the monopoly of Visa and Mastercard really matters and it is very hard to circumvent. That of Apple and Google, much less so.

glogla 6y ago
For a common person, Google/Apple cartel is about as much unavoidable as Visa/MC one. You are one of the very few exceptions - just as there are surely exceptional people who can do financial transactions that avoid Visa/MC. Society is not math or computer science where existence of one counterexample makes things invalid. Society is a thing of ratios and percentages. If something is almost impossible for most people, we have to treat it as impossible even though it is possible for some - otherwise bad actors get away with terrible stuff on technicalities. (I for example pay everything with cash or wires which are free and instantaneous in my country - I use card only once in a while to withdraw cash - but it does not invalidate Visa/MC duopoly any more than your special Android that only one in ten thousand people can use either)
- adrian_b 6y ago
  I am an exception just in the sense that every time when I buy a new phone I reject many times the insistent suggestions of Android to open a Google account and to enable Google Services / Google Play, until Android gives up and bothers me no more. I do not need extra apps from the Google Store, because all the phones that I buy do the things that I need, e.g. voice calls, SMS messages, Internet browsing, photo/video recording, document reading, etc., without needing to install anything else. Things like Google Maps can be accessed in the browser, there is no need for an app. So it is not difficult to avoid Google. To avoid Visa and MC, one would need exceptional connections, because most online shops do not accept other methods of payment and it would not be easy to convince them to create a special method for you. I choose wire transfers whenever I can instead of credit cards. For payments within the country there are no fees, but for payments to other countries, the fees are larger than for credit cards and the vendors are less likely to have wire transfers as an alternative method of payment.