5 ms·

Yeah, right - if you choose to ignore the following: You can't upgrade the RAM, you can't upgrade the SSD, it doesn't have replaceable battery and you are forc

Yeah, right - if you choose to ignore the following: You can't upgrade the RAM, you can't upgrade the SSD, it doesn't have replaceable battery and you are forced to run a crippled OS on it (macOS Big Sur deliberately cripples VPN and firewall on it so that select Apple softwares can bypass them, allowing Apple better access and control over your data and softwares). (And if you don't care about any of the above, then sure, give in.)

hombre_fatal 6y ago
Everything you prefer in life has downsides that you accept because the upsides outweigh the trade-offs.
- everyone 6y ago
  yeah but Apple downsides are particularly infuriating cus they're not the result of technical limitations.. The downsides are intentional on Apples part. They didnt try to engineer the most useful computer, they intentionally crippled various things in their OS for shady business reasons.
SubiculumCode 6y ago
cripples vpn? that is not a small thing.
- messe 6y ago
  It's false. That was debunked: https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_does_not_bypass_vpns/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_d...
- webmobdev 6y ago
  It cripples some VPN apps. And some VPN softwares that used their own kernel extensions. More here - https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/
frereubu 6y ago
If someone doesn’t care about any of the above, then from their perspective it’s not giving in.
gambiting 6y ago
I mean, you're not wrong, but all of the above apply to normal intel macbooks as well, so I seriously doubt it's going to scare off any typical apple buyers.
messe 6y ago
> macOS Big Sur deliberately cripples VPN and firewall on it so that select Apple softwares can bypass them That was debunked: https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_does_not_bypass_vpns/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_d...
- politelemon 6y ago
  Read the thread carefully. The vpn part was shown to be normal, not the firewall. The original problem was with the firewall, there were only passing mentions of the vpn which op tested. Also problematic, the op released no data. Whether that works for you depends on your pov.
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    The "firewall" was Little Snitch -- which was implemented using a framework intended for per-application VPNs.
    - webmobdev 6y ago
      Not just "Little Snitch", all Firewalls that had their own kernel extensions. With macOS Big Sur, Apple started insisting that thry have built specific API's for firewall softwares, and every firewall app had to use only that, and their custom kernel extensions won't be allowed. But Apple's API are ofcourse designed to allow it bypass their whitelisted softwares. More here: https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic-of-its-own-mac-apps-9dc83c5a9c5b https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic...
- heyoni 6y ago
  It bypasses firewalls, or network blockers using the new APIs...not sure how the vpn thing got started because that was never part of the original claims.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    > not sure how the vpn thing got started Some VPN apps use their own kernel extension and macOS Big Sur discourages that. https://tunnelblick.net/cTunTapConnections.html https://tunnelblick.net/cTunTapConnections.html Some VPN apps that weren't using VPN but used proxying also are affected. Also read https://protonvpn.com/blog/big-sur-exclusion-list/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/big-sur-exclusion-list/ for more info.
chapium 6y ago
Using a computer and extending a computer are two different problems. If I'm test driving a car, I'm not judging it for how serviceable the tires are. However, I'd factor that in for a purchase.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  How would you like it if you had to spend an arm and leg to repair a car that wasn't built to be repaired? Soldered RAM or SSD means on macbooks mean just that for a computer too.
czhiddy 6y ago
OP: "In-N-Out is my favorite fast food restaurant." You: "No, you're wrong."
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Even if the intended meaning is that it does (in the title) say "best" not favourite, which is ultimately, if not exactly, a reasonably quantitative question.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    I’m pretty sure normally when people express “____ is the best _____ I’ve ever owned”, they’re implicitly saying it’s the best “for my needs and preferences”. Absent brain trauma or serious delusion, I would assume the person speaking is better able to quantify that than any outside observer.
- cool-RR 6y ago
  OP: "Here's my opinion." Him: "Here's mine."
boxmonster 6y ago
It seems weird to me that someone on HN would declare a computer that doesn't run Linux the best computer
__jem 6y ago
I'd rather have more closely integrated hardware for a laptop. It's more efficient and leads to a smaller, more powerful device. I have a powerful desktop that I pay for incremental upgrades and it works great. I'm not in the Apple ecosystem, but have been before, and either way my goal is to have high quality ultrabook that serves as thin client to desktop/the cloud. Everyone has a different workflow that works for them, but I'm fortunate enough that upgrading an ultrabook every few years isn't a big deal.
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  Spot on. With desktops "loose fitting" software isn't as much of an issue, because there one has an appreciable margin in computing muscle and no concern for things like power efficiency, but with laptops lack of integration degrades the resulting product quite a lot. Software alone can be what makes a laptop good or bad. For someone seeking "the best of both worlds" in terms of integration, power efficiency, and upgradability/overall flexibility, that can sometimes be found in 2-3 generation old (where all of the hardware is solidly supported) high-end business laptops running some flavor of Linux, but knowing which models of laptop are the "good ones" as well as setting up Linux to run optimally on them takes a level of involvement and energy that not everybody is up for.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  "Closely integrated" doesn't have to mean soldered rams, soldered ssd, or hard to replace batteries and other components.
blizkreeg 6y ago
May be you are not their in their ideal customer profile anyway?
user-the-name 6y ago
I haven't wanted to upgrade the RAM in a laptop in at least half a decade now.
- _huayra_ 6y ago
  What about paying the OEM markup for the RAM they install? god knows if I paid Lenovo for maxing out the RAM specs instead of just pay it from newegg at the like I'd be in the poor house!
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    I think I'd rather pay the money to get a nicer form factor for the computer, and the increased performance for on-die RAM.
youeseh 6y ago
My maxed out 2015 13" Macbook Pro runs as strong as ever. I paid more up front and have had no regrets since, and no need to upgrade any of the internals.
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  How is your battery life, I only get around two hours. Changing it would cost me 200 GBP.
  - youeseh 6y ago
    Around 4 right now. "Needs Service" I mostly keep it plugged in and have a charger for each room in the apartment. I've replaced the battery in a 2013 Macbook pro. It is very similar to the 2015. If I don't buy a newer laptop when the time comes, I'll gladly pay the Apple store to replace the battery for me.
colordrops 6y ago
I only use Apple for my work laptop and phone since I'm already being spied on and they will upgrade me when I need it. It's perfect for that case. At home I've got an xps15 with linux and a phone with LineageOS. Would never apple for personal stuff.
IkmoIkmo 6y ago
As an owner of a 2015 Macbook Pro, I'm pretty okay with that. Haven't upgraded anything the past 6 years. Honestly I'd like an SSD and RAM upgrade but it's not that big of a deal. It costs money, too, and there's a bunch of stuff that doesn't improve with it like the CPU and battery which are key. And secondarily, any improvements to formfactor, screen, webcam, keyboard etc, although that's not as significant nowadays. I'd rather just sell it for a few hundred bucks now that I'm 6y in, and get a replacement machine with twice the battery and a much better CPU. I think even without resale value $1200 or so machine cost me like $16 a month and I think I use it about 300 hours a month, or about 5 cent per hour. It's quite negligible part of my hourly/monthly wage. With resale value it's probably even 25-30% less, maybe 3.5 cents per hour. If I were to have spent money on upgrades, it'd be a bit cheaper than a full replacement - resale value, but at best it'd get me to 2 or 2.5 cents per hour. But I'd miss out on improved CPU, battery etc. Not being able to upgrade parts isn't that big of a deal to me. Back in the day it was, as within 2-3 years I felt I saw noticeable better experiences on the market with new parts. But today I'm quite fine purchasing an experience and having it last the next 5-6 years, before I upgrade. At which point I want a full upgrade, rather than only a few parts.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > Honestly I'd like an SSD and RAM upgrade but it's not that big of a deal. It's not just about upgrades, but repairability too.
peckrob 6y ago
I can think of exactly one time in my life I have upgraded anything on a laptop, and that was probably more than a decade ago. Back when they still came with 4200rpm 2.5" hard drives, and I put a newer drive in a then 5 year old Dell because I needed it to last another few years. I did have a battery go bad in my MacBook Pro about 8 year ago, and it was replaced by Apple free of charge even though it was WAY out of warranty and I didn't have Applecare. Service like that alone is enough to keep me as a customer. Most of the rest of the time by the time I am ready to start upgrading components, I am just wanting a newer, faster machine in general. I am not saying these things are not important - the are obviously important _to you_. But Apple has figured, correctly in my opinion, they are are not important to a _lot_ of people, or at the very least are not deal breakers. And more often than not I find myself in the latter camp.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

Everything you prefer in life has downsides that you accept because the upsides outweigh the trade-offs.

everyone 6y ago
yeah but Apple downsides are particularly infuriating cus they're not the result of technical limitations.. The downsides are intentional on Apples part. They didnt try to engineer the most useful computer, they intentionally crippled various things in their OS for shady business reasons.

SubiculumCode 6y ago

cripples vpn? that is not a small thing.

messe 6y ago
It's false. That was debunked: https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_does_not_bypass_vpns/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_d...
webmobdev 6y ago
It cripples some VPN apps. And some VPN softwares that used their own kernel extensions. More here - https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/ https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/

frereubu 6y ago

If someone doesn’t care about any of the above, then from their perspective it’s not giving in.

gambiting 6y ago

I mean, you're not wrong, but all of the above apply to normal intel macbooks as well, so I seriously doubt it's going to scare off any typical apple buyers.

messe 6y ago

> macOS Big Sur deliberately cripples VPN and firewall on it so that select Apple softwares can bypass them That was debunked: https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_does_not_bypass_vpns/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/k0c00f/macos_big_sur_d...

politelemon 6y ago
Read the thread carefully. The vpn part was shown to be normal, not the firewall. The original problem was with the firewall, there were only passing mentions of the vpn which op tested. Also problematic, the op released no data. Whether that works for you depends on your pov.
- duskwuff 6y ago
  The "firewall" was Little Snitch -- which was implemented using a framework intended for per-application VPNs.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    Not just "Little Snitch", all Firewalls that had their own kernel extensions. With macOS Big Sur, Apple started insisting that thry have built specific API's for firewall softwares, and every firewall app had to use only that, and their custom kernel extensions won't be allowed. But Apple's API are ofcourse designed to allow it bypass their whitelisted softwares. More here: https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic-of-its-own-mac-apps-9dc83c5a9c5b https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic...
heyoni 6y ago
It bypasses firewalls, or network blockers using the new APIs...not sure how the vpn thing got started because that was never part of the original claims.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > not sure how the vpn thing got started Some VPN apps use their own kernel extension and macOS Big Sur discourages that. https://tunnelblick.net/cTunTapConnections.html https://tunnelblick.net/cTunTapConnections.html Some VPN apps that weren't using VPN but used proxying also are affected. Also read https://protonvpn.com/blog/big-sur-exclusion-list/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/big-sur-exclusion-list/ for more info.

chapium 6y ago

Using a computer and extending a computer are two different problems. If I'm test driving a car, I'm not judging it for how serviceable the tires are. However, I'd factor that in for a purchase.

webmobdev 6y ago
How would you like it if you had to spend an arm and leg to repair a car that wasn't built to be repaired? Soldered RAM or SSD means on macbooks mean just that for a computer too.

czhiddy 6y ago

OP: "In-N-Out is my favorite fast food restaurant." You: "No, you're wrong."

mhh__ 6y ago
Even if the intended meaning is that it does (in the title) say "best" not favourite, which is ultimately, if not exactly, a reasonably quantitative question.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  I’m pretty sure normally when people express “____ is the best _____ I’ve ever owned”, they’re implicitly saying it’s the best “for my needs and preferences”. Absent brain trauma or serious delusion, I would assume the person speaking is better able to quantify that than any outside observer.
cool-RR 6y ago
OP: "Here's my opinion." Him: "Here's mine."

boxmonster 6y ago

It seems weird to me that someone on HN would declare a computer that doesn't run Linux the best computer

__jem 6y ago

I'd rather have more closely integrated hardware for a laptop. It's more efficient and leads to a smaller, more powerful device. I have a powerful desktop that I pay for incremental upgrades and it works great. I'm not in the Apple ecosystem, but have been before, and either way my goal is to have high quality ultrabook that serves as thin client to desktop/the cloud. Everyone has a different workflow that works for them, but I'm fortunate enough that upgrading an ultrabook every few years isn't a big deal.

kitsunesoba 6y ago
Spot on. With desktops "loose fitting" software isn't as much of an issue, because there one has an appreciable margin in computing muscle and no concern for things like power efficiency, but with laptops lack of integration degrades the resulting product quite a lot. Software alone can be what makes a laptop good or bad. For someone seeking "the best of both worlds" in terms of integration, power efficiency, and upgradability/overall flexibility, that can sometimes be found in 2-3 generation old (where all of the hardware is solidly supported) high-end business laptops running some flavor of Linux, but knowing which models of laptop are the "good ones" as well as setting up Linux to run optimally on them takes a level of involvement and energy that not everybody is up for.
webmobdev 6y ago
"Closely integrated" doesn't have to mean soldered rams, soldered ssd, or hard to replace batteries and other components.

blizkreeg 6y ago

May be you are not their in their ideal customer profile anyway?

user-the-name 6y ago

I haven't wanted to upgrade the RAM in a laptop in at least half a decade now.

_huayra_ 6y ago
What about paying the OEM markup for the RAM they install? god knows if I paid Lenovo for maxing out the RAM specs instead of just pay it from newegg at the like I'd be in the poor house!
- user-the-name 6y ago
  I think I'd rather pay the money to get a nicer form factor for the computer, and the increased performance for on-die RAM.

youeseh 6y ago

My maxed out 2015 13" Macbook Pro runs as strong as ever. I paid more up front and have had no regrets since, and no need to upgrade any of the internals.

ProZsolt 6y ago
How is your battery life, I only get around two hours. Changing it would cost me 200 GBP.
- youeseh 6y ago
  Around 4 right now. "Needs Service" I mostly keep it plugged in and have a charger for each room in the apartment. I've replaced the battery in a 2013 Macbook pro. It is very similar to the 2015. If I don't buy a newer laptop when the time comes, I'll gladly pay the Apple store to replace the battery for me.

colordrops 6y ago

I only use Apple for my work laptop and phone since I'm already being spied on and they will upgrade me when I need it. It's perfect for that case. At home I've got an xps15 with linux and a phone with LineageOS. Would never apple for personal stuff.

IkmoIkmo 6y ago

As an owner of a 2015 Macbook Pro, I'm pretty okay with that. Haven't upgraded anything the past 6 years. Honestly I'd like an SSD and RAM upgrade but it's not that big of a deal. It costs money, too, and there's a bunch of stuff that doesn't improve with it like the CPU and battery which are key. And secondarily, any improvements to formfactor, screen, webcam, keyboard etc, although that's not as significant nowadays. I'd rather just sell it for a few hundred bucks now that I'm 6y in, and get a replacement machine with twice the battery and a much better CPU. I think even without resale value $1200 or so machine cost me like $16 a month and I think I use it about 300 hours a month, or about 5 cent per hour. It's quite negligible part of my hourly/monthly wage. With resale value it's probably even 25-30% less, maybe 3.5 cents per hour. If I were to have spent money on upgrades, it'd be a bit cheaper than a full replacement - resale value, but at best it'd get me to 2 or 2.5 cents per hour. But I'd miss out on improved CPU, battery etc. Not being able to upgrade parts isn't that big of a deal to me. Back in the day it was, as within 2-3 years I felt I saw noticeable better experiences on the market with new parts. But today I'm quite fine purchasing an experience and having it last the next 5-6 years, before I upgrade. At which point I want a full upgrade, rather than only a few parts.

webmobdev 6y ago
> Honestly I'd like an SSD and RAM upgrade but it's not that big of a deal. It's not just about upgrades, but repairability too.

peckrob 6y ago

I can think of exactly one time in my life I have upgraded anything on a laptop, and that was probably more than a decade ago. Back when they still came with 4200rpm 2.5" hard drives, and I put a newer drive in a then 5 year old Dell because I needed it to last another few years. I did have a battery go bad in my MacBook Pro about 8 year ago, and it was replaced by Apple free of charge even though it was WAY out of warranty and I didn't have Applecare. Service like that alone is enough to keep me as a customer. Most of the rest of the time by the time I am ready to start upgrading components, I am just wanting a newer, faster machine in general. I am not saying these things are not important - the are obviously important _to you_. But Apple has figured, correctly in my opinion, they are are not important to a _lot_ of people, or at the very least are not deal breakers. And more often than not I find myself in the latter camp.