5 ms·

It would be really-really important to use pre-registration especially in socially sensitive studies like this one. It is possible that these numbers are artifa

It would be really-really important to use pre-registration especially in socially sensitive studies like this one. It is possible that these numbers are artifacts even if the stated p value is low. I'm not saying that the study is wrong, just that shocking results like this one need extreme methodological rigor behind them before we start telling everyone that white doctors are killing black babies etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preregistration_(science) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preregistration_(science)

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
Black America is well aware of the fact that being black means that we will run into sub-part outcomes in US society. This isn't news to our community. Just because it causes feelings of racial anxiety in other groups doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned and be studied. Before such a study, when black Americans would have noted that something seemed off, we would have been met with "You need data to back that up, X can't be racist!!!". Now that there is data to back up what we've known, it's "Your p-value is wrong!!!"
- sockjuice 6y ago
  Exactly this, but you will of course be downvoted here for pointing out this truth. For a purportedly open-minded set of hackers who claim to follow their intellectual curiosity, too many people here are very closed-minded about racism.
  - dang 6y ago
    That comment is heavily upvoted. Your comment here, however, has rightly been downvoted and flagged, not just for being false, but for being flamebait and a supercilious dismissal. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
- 4gotunameagain 6y ago
  Well we could avoid "black/white America" terms probably if we were more careful about the statistical significance of such inflammatory statements. If it is indeed the case, then it is a horrible thing that should be researched more, and dealt with. If not, publishing it is just racist and divisive.
  - macintux 6y ago
    I challenge you to read the whitepaper and show us the “inflammatory statements”. https://1410c6d1-d135-4b4a-a0cf-5e7e63a95a5c.filesusr.com/ugd/c11158_150b03cf5fbb484bbdf1a7e0aabc54fb.pdf https://1410c6d1-d135-4b4a-a0cf-5e7e63a95a5c.filesusr.com/ug...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
klyrs 6y ago
> ...before we start telling everyone that white doctors are killing black babies etc. We aren't yelling that, though, and you're the first one to say it here. This fear of being accused of racism is intense; as if acknowledging that black people are actually treated worse by our society is actually more harmful than the loss of life that black people experience. This is a preliminary study, and yes, it deserves a followup. If you're saying that preliminary studies should always be kept under wraps and not discussed, that's weird and anti-science. There are a couple of well-understood phenomena that can explain this. The first is unconscious bias -- it's been shown time and time again, across the board with various population differences, and could easily explain this. Second, bad training data -- if a doctor hasn't been trained with black patients, and pictures of black people with various ailments, then they might not recognize symptoms as readily (insert analogy to facial recognition). Also, a large proportion of black people in the US speak a different dialect than their white counterparts -- the way folks describe their symptoms differs between dialects -- so if a white doctor can't understand what their black patient is saying, they're operating on less information than a white doctor treating a white patient would be. Finally, a matter of trust -- psychosomatics are real -- black women know their history, and might not trust a white doctor as well as a black doctor, and that can impact outcomes. Rebuilding that trust will take generations of trustworthy, good faith efforts to correct the wrongs of the past.
- jart 6y ago
  > If you're saying that preliminary studies should always be kept under wraps and not discussed, that's weird and anti-science. See https://www.medrxiv.org/ https://www.medrxiv.org/ > Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information. It's annoying when news websites report on research that isn't reviewed. It's been happening at an increasing rate over the last few years because these news websites are so hungry for advertising revenue. It undermines the public's trust in science. It threatens our ability to do research openly and inclusively.
  - klyrs 6y ago
DoreenMichele 6y ago
just that shocking results like this This is not shocking. It's well known that Blacks don't live as long as Whites in the US and have generally poorer outcomes for all metrics -- health, economic status, etc. That's old news and common knowledge. It's also old news and common knowledge that the difference is quite substantial. It's not a small difference at all.
- nomdep 6y ago
  Because more blacks are poor, not (directly) because the color of their skin.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    And how is it 'more blacks are poor' persistently across the nation for hundreds of years having nothing to do with the color of their skin? Blacks are last hired, first fired. There is a history of laws being written to explicitly and intentionally exclude them and not all those laws have been expunged from the books. Redlining and similar practices are well documented. I don't know how anyone can suggest that poverty is the root cause of poor outcomes for Blacks and is wholly unrelated to their skin color and deny that skin color has any connection as a root cause when we know for a fact it does. We know for a fact that there is a long history in this country of Blacks being actively and intentionally denied access to the same things as Whites in this country because of the color of their skin.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      > Blacks are last hired, first fired. Sounds like you don’t have much exposure to large companies these days. If anything it’s the opposite. You’re incorrect that there are any racist laws remaining that might influence hiring, unless you are referring to govern contracts, in which minority owned businesses are given preference. It is silly to introduce historical artifacts as though they are the situation today.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago

Black America is well aware of the fact that being black means that we will run into sub-part outcomes in US society. This isn't news to our community. Just because it causes feelings of racial anxiety in other groups doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned and be studied. Before such a study, when black Americans would have noted that something seemed off, we would have been met with "You need data to back that up, X can't be racist!!!". Now that there is data to back up what we've known, it's "Your p-value is wrong!!!"

sockjuice 6y ago
Exactly this, but you will of course be downvoted here for pointing out this truth. For a purportedly open-minded set of hackers who claim to follow their intellectual curiosity, too many people here are very closed-minded about racism.
- dang 6y ago
  That comment is heavily upvoted. Your comment here, however, has rightly been downvoted and flagged, not just for being false, but for being flamebait and a supercilious dismissal. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
4gotunameagain 6y ago
Well we could avoid "black/white America" terms probably if we were more careful about the statistical significance of such inflammatory statements. If it is indeed the case, then it is a horrible thing that should be researched more, and dealt with. If not, publishing it is just racist and divisive.
- macintux 6y ago
  I challenge you to read the whitepaper and show us the “inflammatory statements”. https://1410c6d1-d135-4b4a-a0cf-5e7e63a95a5c.filesusr.com/ugd/c11158_150b03cf5fbb484bbdf1a7e0aabc54fb.pdf https://1410c6d1-d135-4b4a-a0cf-5e7e63a95a5c.filesusr.com/ug...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

klyrs 6y ago

> ...before we start telling everyone that white doctors are killing black babies etc. We aren't yelling that, though, and you're the first one to say it here. This fear of being accused of racism is intense; as if acknowledging that black people are actually treated worse by our society is actually more harmful than the loss of life that black people experience. This is a preliminary study, and yes, it deserves a followup. If you're saying that preliminary studies should always be kept under wraps and not discussed, that's weird and anti-science. There are a couple of well-understood phenomena that can explain this. The first is unconscious bias -- it's been shown time and time again, across the board with various population differences, and could easily explain this. Second, bad training data -- if a doctor hasn't been trained with black patients, and pictures of black people with various ailments, then they might not recognize symptoms as readily (insert analogy to facial recognition). Also, a large proportion of black people in the US speak a different dialect than their white counterparts -- the way folks describe their symptoms differs between dialects -- so if a white doctor can't understand what their black patient is saying, they're operating on less information than a white doctor treating a white patient would be. Finally, a matter of trust -- psychosomatics are real -- black women know their history, and might not trust a white doctor as well as a black doctor, and that can impact outcomes. Rebuilding that trust will take generations of trustworthy, good faith efforts to correct the wrongs of the past.

jart 6y ago
> If you're saying that preliminary studies should always be kept under wraps and not discussed, that's weird and anti-science. See https://www.medrxiv.org/ https://www.medrxiv.org/ > Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information. It's annoying when news websites report on research that isn't reviewed. It's been happening at an increasing rate over the last few years because these news websites are so hungry for advertising revenue. It undermines the public's trust in science. It threatens our ability to do research openly and inclusively.
- klyrs 6y ago

DoreenMichele 6y ago

just that shocking results like this This is not shocking. It's well known that Blacks don't live as long as Whites in the US and have generally poorer outcomes for all metrics -- health, economic status, etc. That's old news and common knowledge. It's also old news and common knowledge that the difference is quite substantial. It's not a small difference at all.

nomdep 6y ago
Because more blacks are poor, not (directly) because the color of their skin.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  And how is it 'more blacks are poor' persistently across the nation for hundreds of years having nothing to do with the color of their skin? Blacks are last hired, first fired. There is a history of laws being written to explicitly and intentionally exclude them and not all those laws have been expunged from the books. Redlining and similar practices are well documented. I don't know how anyone can suggest that poverty is the root cause of poor outcomes for Blacks and is wholly unrelated to their skin color and deny that skin color has any connection as a root cause when we know for a fact it does. We know for a fact that there is a long history in this country of Blacks being actively and intentionally denied access to the same things as Whites in this country because of the color of their skin.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    > Blacks are last hired, first fired. Sounds like you don’t have much exposure to large companies these days. If anything it’s the opposite. You’re incorrect that there are any racist laws remaining that might influence hiring, unless you are referring to govern contracts, in which minority owned businesses are given preference. It is silly to introduce historical artifacts as though they are the situation today.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago