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Probably the gold rush for decentralized, censorship-resistant platforms for the Right to jump to. This is bad for any mainstream ambitions by the Matrix team.

Probably the gold rush for decentralized, censorship-resistant platforms for the Right to jump to. This is bad for any mainstream ambitions by the Matrix team. If it becomes the next Gab/Parler, normal people will avoid being associated with it. I know this association would absolutely sink my friends exploring the platform further while we're exploring alternatives for when Google Hangouts is decommissioned.

ZoomZoomZoom 6y ago
I don't see people avoiding using phones even though neo-nazi, criminals, redheads and people with sexual preferences radically different from theirs use them constantly. Matrix is not a platform, it's a protocol and some implementation software developed in the open.
- swsieber 6y ago
  Yeah, I'd see more of an issue it matrix was a platform. It's more akin to email.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    You mean in a few years there'll be only 3 or 4 free mail providers with e2e disabled for convenience[0] and data broker objectives (as a mean to pay for the service) and only a selected few can federate (because hey, spam or something) ? Like Mastodon, Matrix has it built-in in its principles that a federated instance can prevent being contacted from another (this is the whitelist setting). Feel free to correct me, I am not 100% sure. [0] or available for real money !
- _1100 6y ago
  And these distinctions are esoteric to most. If the headline “(extremist group) use / flock to matrix to plan (nefarious thing)” shows up in the news, these distinctions hardly matter anymore.
  - kitkat_new 6y ago
    Do you think they notice that Element uses Matrix as a protocol?
  - yorwba 6y ago
    Has the headline “(extremist group) use / flock to WhatsApp to plan (nefarious thing)” ever dissuaded someone from installing WhatsApp? Probably, but it got popular anyway. https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/627577/Islamic-State-Terrorist-Attack-Paris-WhatsApp-Encrypted https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/6275...
- karatinversion 6y ago
  So, it’s important to get this right. In reputational effects, like this one, we don’t care about P(I use this | I’m a bad person) because, like you point out, this obscures cases, like breathing air, where P(I use this) is already high. Instead, we care about P(I’m a bad person | I use this) And we especially care if this conditional probability is perceived to be high. This is because then your potential users will worry that if they use your product, others will make the (justified!) Bayesian inference that they are bad people. Because they don’t want to be seen to be bad people, they will avoid it.
feanaro 6y ago
Considering the substantial and increasing government/military usage of Matrix, I don't think this is a realistic scenario, but I guess only time can tell.
iotku 6y ago
>If it becomes the next Gab/Parler, normal people will avoid being associated with it. Matrix's policies are pretty well enough to keep them pretty far out of contention for such a comparison https://matrix.org/legal/code-of-conduct#definitions https://matrix.org/legal/code-of-conduct#definitions > I know this association would absolutely sink my friends exploring the platform further while we're exploring alternatives for when Google Hangouts is decommissioned. Should there be such rooms (that still fall short of being removed for "abuse") you're not forced to join them. No different than you not joining Google Hangouts full of people you'd rather not talk to. Chat systems like IRC/Element don't force you to join and speak with anyone you don't want to unlike social media sites which try to have literally everyone in the same pool. If your standard is "people I don't like are able to use this service" you will find no service that will have 0% of said people.
- Steltek 6y ago
  You may as well say, "There's nothing wrong with Gab/Parler/Voat as long as you stay away from the political discussions". It doesn't matter. Your technical and logical distinctions are minor and irrelevant to most people compared to an overwhelmingly negative reputation.
  - iotku 6y ago
    >You may as well say, "There's nothing wrong with Gab/Parler/Voat as long as you stay away from the political discussions". It's just a fundamentally different system than what you're comparing it to and has many well established communities that aren't what you appear to be alluding to. >It doesn't matter. Your technical and logical distinctions are minor and irrelevant to most people compared to an overwhelmingly negative reputation. Are there any major situations involving matrix that you can point to? I'm not aware of any major issues and just because it's not one of the major social media platforms (arguably not even social media depending on your definition) doesn't mean it's inherently bad.
    - Steltek 6y ago
      > It's just a fundamentally different system than what you're comparing it to and has many well established communities that aren't what you appear to be alluding to. You may as well be telling me how wonderful BitTorrent is for downloading Linux ISOs and to ignore that whole The Pirate Bay thing.

ZoomZoomZoom 6y ago

I don't see people avoiding using phones even though neo-nazi, criminals, redheads and people with sexual preferences radically different from theirs use them constantly. Matrix is not a platform, it's a protocol and some implementation software developed in the open.

swsieber 6y ago
Yeah, I'd see more of an issue it matrix was a platform. It's more akin to email.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  You mean in a few years there'll be only 3 or 4 free mail providers with e2e disabled for convenience[0] and data broker objectives (as a mean to pay for the service) and only a selected few can federate (because hey, spam or something) ? Like Mastodon, Matrix has it built-in in its principles that a federated instance can prevent being contacted from another (this is the whitelist setting). Feel free to correct me, I am not 100% sure. [0] or available for real money !
_1100 6y ago
And these distinctions are esoteric to most. If the headline “(extremist group) use / flock to matrix to plan (nefarious thing)” shows up in the news, these distinctions hardly matter anymore.
- kitkat_new 6y ago
  Do you think they notice that Element uses Matrix as a protocol?
- yorwba 6y ago
  Has the headline “(extremist group) use / flock to WhatsApp to plan (nefarious thing)” ever dissuaded someone from installing WhatsApp? Probably, but it got popular anyway. https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/627577/Islamic-State-Terrorist-Attack-Paris-WhatsApp-Encrypted https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/6275...
karatinversion 6y ago
So, it’s important to get this right. In reputational effects, like this one, we don’t care about P(I use this | I’m a bad person) because, like you point out, this obscures cases, like breathing air, where P(I use this) is already high. Instead, we care about P(I’m a bad person | I use this) And we especially care if this conditional probability is perceived to be high. This is because then your potential users will worry that if they use your product, others will make the (justified!) Bayesian inference that they are bad people. Because they don’t want to be seen to be bad people, they will avoid it.

feanaro 6y ago

Considering the substantial and increasing government/military usage of Matrix, I don't think this is a realistic scenario, but I guess only time can tell.

iotku 6y ago

>If it becomes the next Gab/Parler, normal people will avoid being associated with it. Matrix's policies are pretty well enough to keep them pretty far out of contention for such a comparison https://matrix.org/legal/code-of-conduct#definitions https://matrix.org/legal/code-of-conduct#definitions > I know this association would absolutely sink my friends exploring the platform further while we're exploring alternatives for when Google Hangouts is decommissioned. Should there be such rooms (that still fall short of being removed for "abuse") you're not forced to join them. No different than you not joining Google Hangouts full of people you'd rather not talk to. Chat systems like IRC/Element don't force you to join and speak with anyone you don't want to unlike social media sites which try to have literally everyone in the same pool. If your standard is "people I don't like are able to use this service" you will find no service that will have 0% of said people.

Steltek 6y ago
You may as well say, "There's nothing wrong with Gab/Parler/Voat as long as you stay away from the political discussions". It doesn't matter. Your technical and logical distinctions are minor and irrelevant to most people compared to an overwhelmingly negative reputation.
- iotku 6y ago
  >You may as well say, "There's nothing wrong with Gab/Parler/Voat as long as you stay away from the political discussions". It's just a fundamentally different system than what you're comparing it to and has many well established communities that aren't what you appear to be alluding to. >It doesn't matter. Your technical and logical distinctions are minor and irrelevant to most people compared to an overwhelmingly negative reputation. Are there any major situations involving matrix that you can point to? I'm not aware of any major issues and just because it's not one of the major social media platforms (arguably not even social media depending on your definition) doesn't mean it's inherently bad.
  - Steltek 6y ago
    > It's just a fundamentally different system than what you're comparing it to and has many well established communities that aren't what you appear to be alluding to. You may as well be telling me how wonderful BitTorrent is for downloading Linux ISOs and to ignore that whole The Pirate Bay thing.