8 ms·

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but for the sake of sharing: I'm of the belief that any coercion with the intent to disuade women from having any (or more

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but for the sake of sharing: I'm of the belief that any coercion with the intent to disuade women from having any (or more) kids is ethically wrong, (except for some very very limited cases). Govt really shouldn't have a heavy influence on what is a family decision. While I'm all for educating poor areas in order to increase quality of life... if one of the stated goals of that education is to reduce the number of that populations offspring, then there are some tough ethical questions about such a program that need to be answered. And that's before you even get into the "targeted minority" aspects. And yes, I get that one easy way to "improve quality of life" is to have fewer kids (I personally disagree), and I get that educated couples often have fewer kids... but if that's where the bulk of the QoL bump is coming from... Then that's just straight up population control going by an alias with better branding.

flycaliguy 6y ago
Aren’t most of these programs designed to prevent unwanted pregnancy? Is it unethical to assist people in preventing a mistake?
- OwlsParlay 6y ago
  The argument would be, what is the intent of the CCP in pushing this program, gien the evidence of coercion from Uyghur camp survivors. Is it as virtuous as state media argues? Doubtful.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    CCP pushed birth control for everyone in China (at least publicly)
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- arthur2e5 6y ago
  Family planning did and still does mean something coercive in China for most people. To them it's about paying a fine for extra kids, and when local govt gets angry forced birth control. People hid kids for a reason. The policy has historically allowed exceptions for ethnic minorities, but looking at news stories they have been physically putting birth control devices in Uyghur women without consent too. The state perfected its art of surveillance by testing on minorities; it's no surprise they also perfected some other human rights violations from experience with Han people. (There are cheap condom programs, but the entire country just doesn't talk about sex. You get few safe sex talks, and all these stuff end up as balloons for kids and hairbands. Combined oral contraceptives are cheap and OTC, but the culture is heavily against "unnecessary use of western medicine", especially for the cheap ethinylestradiol/levonostrogel kind because "cheap means bad". So you end up with good women's bodily autonomy on paper and terrible execution, even without the violations.)
- grenoire 6y ago
  Unwanted pregnancies can be prevented through education. This is not something that must be done in teenage years, there are adults who are unaware of contraceptives or don't have access to them. Permanently preventing someone from having children is immoral, the alternative is actively being ignored by the govt. in question.
beaunative 6y ago
Why is population control inherently wrong? sustainable envrionment and forever exploding population is a pair of inherently conflicting goals, at least while we still only inhabit earth. We have to acknowledge there is a maximum which this planet can handle. Even if we do regard having children as a very personal right, we must acknowledge the collective effect is not within our control, not in the near future.
- chongli 6y ago
  This is "population control" targeted at a specific ethnic and religious minority, not population control in general. China is trying to crowd out the Uighur population by settling ethnic Han Chinese from elsewhere in the country and by imprisonment and forced sterilization of the population. This campaign meets the UN criteria for genocide.
  - beaunative 6y ago
    It was very clear that the one child policy targeted the whole population, and ethnic minorities are generally allowed more leeway than Han Chinese.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      China's Uighur policy isn't "One family one child." It's sterilization, so that Uighur families can't have children. EDIT: HN won't let me respond, probably due to the automatic moderation controls kicking in on this article, so here's an example of the forced sterilization policy indiscriminately targeting all Uighur women: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minorit...
      - beaunative 6y ago
        Where did you read that? If I read it correctly, they used sterilization on couples who already have children at the limit allowed. I won't call it can't
acct776 6y ago
We have exactly the same opinion, it seems. Except, you missed the part where, if someone's free to run up the score with 4, 6, or 10 children...they also have the freedom to watch them starve if they can't support them. I don't know that better planners should be forced into subsidizing bad family planning/no family planning.
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tasuki 6y ago
> I'm of the belief that any coercion with the intent to disuade women from having any (or more) kids is ethically wrong, (except for some very very limited cases). Govt really shouldn't have a heavy influence on what is a family decision. What about government policies that persuade women to have more children? Are those ethically ok?

flycaliguy 6y ago

Aren’t most of these programs designed to prevent unwanted pregnancy? Is it unethical to assist people in preventing a mistake?

OwlsParlay 6y ago
The argument would be, what is the intent of the CCP in pushing this program, gien the evidence of coercion from Uyghur camp survivors. Is it as virtuous as state media argues? Doubtful.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  CCP pushed birth control for everyone in China (at least publicly)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
arthur2e5 6y ago
Family planning did and still does mean something coercive in China for most people. To them it's about paying a fine for extra kids, and when local govt gets angry forced birth control. People hid kids for a reason. The policy has historically allowed exceptions for ethnic minorities, but looking at news stories they have been physically putting birth control devices in Uyghur women without consent too. The state perfected its art of surveillance by testing on minorities; it's no surprise they also perfected some other human rights violations from experience with Han people. (There are cheap condom programs, but the entire country just doesn't talk about sex. You get few safe sex talks, and all these stuff end up as balloons for kids and hairbands. Combined oral contraceptives are cheap and OTC, but the culture is heavily against "unnecessary use of western medicine", especially for the cheap ethinylestradiol/levonostrogel kind because "cheap means bad". So you end up with good women's bodily autonomy on paper and terrible execution, even without the violations.)
grenoire 6y ago
Unwanted pregnancies can be prevented through education. This is not something that must be done in teenage years, there are adults who are unaware of contraceptives or don't have access to them. Permanently preventing someone from having children is immoral, the alternative is actively being ignored by the govt. in question.

beaunative 6y ago

Why is population control inherently wrong? sustainable envrionment and forever exploding population is a pair of inherently conflicting goals, at least while we still only inhabit earth. We have to acknowledge there is a maximum which this planet can handle. Even if we do regard having children as a very personal right, we must acknowledge the collective effect is not within our control, not in the near future.

chongli 6y ago
This is "population control" targeted at a specific ethnic and religious minority, not population control in general. China is trying to crowd out the Uighur population by settling ethnic Han Chinese from elsewhere in the country and by imprisonment and forced sterilization of the population. This campaign meets the UN criteria for genocide.
- beaunative 6y ago
  It was very clear that the one child policy targeted the whole population, and ethnic minorities are generally allowed more leeway than Han Chinese.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    China's Uighur policy isn't "One family one child." It's sterilization, so that Uighur families can't have children. EDIT: HN won't let me respond, probably due to the automatic moderation controls kicking in on this article, so here's an example of the forced sterilization policy indiscriminately targeting all Uighur women: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minorit...
    - beaunative 6y ago
      Where did you read that? If I read it correctly, they used sterilization on couples who already have children at the limit allowed. I won't call it can't

acct776 6y ago

We have exactly the same opinion, it seems. Except, you missed the part where, if someone's free to run up the score with 4, 6, or 10 children...they also have the freedom to watch them starve if they can't support them. I don't know that better planners should be forced into subsidizing bad family planning/no family planning.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

tasuki 6y ago

> I'm of the belief that any coercion with the intent to disuade women from having any (or more) kids is ethically wrong, (except for some very very limited cases). Govt really shouldn't have a heavy influence on what is a family decision. What about government policies that persuade women to have more children? Are those ethically ok?